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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
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TatianaLarina · 14/01/2019 12:16

There would be uproar if she tried to cancel the vote now. If she was going to cancel it it would have been done today.

She’s got to face the music some time so it may as well be now. Her thing is to try to cling on no matter what, she will try to manage the aftermath and hopefully she will fail and be ousted.

icannotremember · 14/01/2019 12:17

Former Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab says “Britain can do better” than Theresa May’s deal.

Claims UK has a significant economic advantage if it goes alone.

Well, that settles any questions we may have had regarding Raab's intelligence and understanding.

Somerville · 14/01/2019 12:18

I assumed since Bercow allowed the Grieve amendement last week that she can't now pull the vote because of the risk of what Bercow may allow in response. He was fuming over it before Christmas, IIRC.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 12:19

Any riots or civil obedience after a Revoke would fade into complete insignificance compared to the absolute fury that would be unleashed after No Deal, when the UK economy goes over a cliff.

When there are shortages of some food & meds - especially when the first child dies
When there are large price rises in food
When unemployment rises by a million or 2
When everyone's benefits are cut, because the trade deficit spikes and the govt has insufficient money

and of course when we have to beg the IMF for help and they order us to cut public spending

  • rule by the IMF is NOT "Taking Back Control"
BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 12:20

If May is ousted, all the favourites to take over are Brexiters
Not just with party members - îirc there was a poll of Tory MPs

TatianaLarina · 14/01/2019 12:20

I’m very heartened by the madness of the Brexiteers. I was fearing superstitiously that the more pragmatic might swing to vote for the WA to preserve Brexit in some form and avoid GE, in addition to Tory moderates/Remainers. I certainly think the vote will be much closer than people think. But luckily the Brexiters are as bonkers as ever.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 12:21

There would be uproar if she tried to cancel the vote now.

I know it's a tad argumentative, but "so what ?" ?

If she was going to cancel it it would have been done today.

I disagree ... it needs to be done at the last minute - ideally in a way that's slightly obscure ... some weird language which needs decoding.

If the vote goes ahead - and fails - Theresa May loses all control. If the vote doesn't happen, she retains a whip hand.

As things stand she can't be forced to hold the vote.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 12:21

"impressive CV" from the fuckwit who didn't even know that so much of our food comes from Dover

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 12:23

A GE in which both Tories and Labour have Brexit in their manifesto does NOT seem an improvement ...

and of course it wastes at least 25 working days

TatianaLarina · 14/01/2019 12:26

The Telegraph reported yesterday that the Tories are on the verge of a spilt. Of all the unlikely things to happen next it’s not the most unlikely. A Brexiter is more likely to supersede May than a moderate.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 12:29

I'd be surprised if May goes, whatever happens:

All along, May has been surviving defeats and humiliations that would have finished any other PM^
She just keeps ploughing on
It's like trying to kill a cockroach with harsh language

and of course the ERG gave her a 12 month hold on the leadership, in which she can't be challenged

The DUP have recently confirmed they will support the Tories against a vote of NC, just not the WA

Of course, she could voluntarily resign (imo only if her health is genuinely affected)
but her legendary stubbornness makes it far more likely she'll stay to the bitter end

prettybird · 14/01/2019 12:35

I think that if there were a PV, then Scotland would vote even more strongly Remain.

All those Unionists who voted Leave, despite supporting the EU, so that they could "stick one on that bitch Sturgeon" Confused, assuming that Remain would win Hmm worked out well for them are now rightly shit-scared that a hard Brexit will bring about Scottish independence sooner. Shock

So another safeguard in any future PV would be to have (what the SNP suggested prior to the Referendum but were defeated because Cameron said that the vote was only advisory Angry) as part of the process, a requirement that each of the constituent parts vote for a change to the status quo. Or as an absolute minimum, a majority for whatever, plus at least 3 of the 4 constituent parts of the UK (remembering that the numbers in England can always over-ride what the rest of the UK wants Sad).

Motheroffourdragons · 14/01/2019 12:35

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 12:36

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-theresa-may-no-deal-vote-commons-repeat-parliament-jeremy-corbyn-a8714241.html

On repeat HoC votes, Erskine May [Parliamentary "bible"] says:

“A motion or an amendment which is the same, in substance, as a question which has been decided during a session
may not be brought forward again during that same session.”^

It says a decision on whether “verbal alterations” amount to real changes are “a matter for the judgment of the chair [the Speaker, John Bercoww^]”.
< he could decide anything ! >

SalrycLuxx · 14/01/2019 12:37

Then they can put Boris in charge. Money where his mouth is etc.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 12:40

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
12pm exclusive

@Oliver_wright⁩ reveals “Boles plan” involves a bill rescinding Article 50 if neither government nor Parliament comes up with an alternative plan before March

- The emergence of a plan with the power to rescind A50 is v significant

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rebels-hatch-bill-to-delay-brexit-mdvw9366d
Rebels hatch bill to delay Brexit

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
YouGov / Times latest also in this story

Tories have 6 point lead over Lab

Tories 41
Lab 35
Lib Dems 11
UKIP 4

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 12:40

The DUP are expected to lose 2-3 seats in the next GE, because their Brexit policy has cost them significant support
(and increased support for reuniting Ireland - expect demands from NI voters for a border poll if we Brexit)

and they would probably lose their once-in-a-generation power if they are no longer needed - or sufficient - for Confidence & Supply in the HoC

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 12:41

{leclerc - please don't call Sadiq Khan an outsider (relative or otherwise) based on his parentage. It's insulting for him and all the rest of us who are migrants ourselves or the children of migrants.}
I am NOT claiming he is an outsider beyond the fact his family roots way back are not the typical white British, which has no bearing on anything. My family is multinational, a fact I only really thought about when I was posting about something else. The relevance is the positivity and DOING things to make life better for all. Like the Mayor of Sheffield(?) the young guy who is so 'way out' that took the council chambers by storm, Positivity and exclusivity.
If people want to whinge and be negative, please don't stand too close to me as I want to have fun while on this planet and I want others around me to have fun too.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 12:43

Yup, looks increasingly likely that a GE before Brexit would lead to a Tory absolute majority in the HoC, without need for DUP support

Likely to be an even bigger victory if Labour go into a GE supporting Brexit

  • polls for that case suggest massive loss of Remainer votes, either staying at home or to smaller parties.
prettybird · 14/01/2019 12:44

Dh keeps saying that he thinks that May will resign, as he can't fathom what's in it for her. In my opinion, she won't as she seems to genuinely believe that this is God's will and that it is her God-given duty to carry on Hmm

I'm not - and never have been - religious, so genuinely don't understand that sort of motivation, but recognise that in some people, like May, like Blair, it is an explanation for and a justification of their stubbornness and blinkeredness belief that they are doing the "right" Hmm thing Confused

umpteennamechanges · 14/01/2019 12:51

A link to Sadiq Khan's article about Project Hope for those interested

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/13/eu-brexit-referendum-positive-case-remain-sadiq-khan

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 12:51

I'm not sure if a stubbornly immovable object needs religious beliefs to be that way

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 12:52

I think that if there were a PV, then Scotland would vote even more strongly Remain.

Do agree with this. Its emotional.

Its closet middle englanders who are remain to leave switchers are more troubling in their decision making and scare me. Its dark.

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 14/01/2019 12:53

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 14/01/2019 12:58

PMK