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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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TatianaLarina · 13/01/2019 23:05

That letter has cheered me up no end. 🤣

Icantreachthepretzels · 13/01/2019 23:07

Yep nasty shock if we remain when peoples emotions all 17+ million ( and more) boil over too.

where has the 'and more' come from? support for brexit is not increasing. Repeating the same groundless threat a couple of posts after the first groundless threat does not make it any more true. Tommy Robinson and his ilk might riot. They will riot if we stay. They will riot if we take the deal. They will riot if we crash out and there are food shortages. Surely you're not suggesting we do something deeply harmful purely to appease them? Cowardice and appeasement is no way to run a country.

There's always a downside when others decide others votes mean nothing
You're talking to the 48%, love. Tell us something we haven't experienced first hand for the past two and half years Hmm

Holidayshopping · 13/01/2019 23:08

But, no worries the shit WA will get through radio 4 just announced 4 Tory backbenchers are now changed their minds and will vote for Mays deal.grin

Really-4?!

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 23:08

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Excl: Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson stuns military chiefs by asking them to paintball Spanish ships trespassing in Gibraltar’s waters;

An MoD spokesman said: “While the Defence Secretary was speaking in jest about paintballing Spanish ships, he is in favour of the Royal Navy taking a strong stand against Spanish incursions into sovereign British waters”.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/8185701/gavin-williamson-spanish-gibraltar-paintballs/
PAINTBALLS AT THE ARMADA! Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson’s plan to scare away Spanish vessels off Gibraltar by using paintballs

Mr Williamson made the extraordinary suggestion during a Ministry of Defence meeting as a way to prevent the growing number of Spanish incursions into British waters

Tom Hamilton @thhamilton
Sometimes hard to distinguish between stories briefed by Gavin Williamson to make himself look hard and stories briefed by enemies of Gavin Williamson to make him look silly.

(This one is pretty obviously the latter, but there’s always a hint with Williamson stories that he might think these things make him look cool.)

'The Saj' Strikes Back...

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PestymcPestFace · 13/01/2019 23:09

Do you think Murrison will have had the GFA redrafted by then or is he planning to invade Ireland or give NI to the Republic?
The backstop has to stay until we have come up with a solution.
Frankly I feel the need to send a dictionary to Westminster with the word backstop highlighted.

Icantreachthepretzels · 13/01/2019 23:11

subject to a legal codicil being added to the Withdrawal Agreement Treaty which specifies that the backstop solution shall expire on 31 December 2022

Um... but the EU will never sign off on this?

TatianaLarina · 13/01/2019 23:11

Why is no-one ever remotely bothered about Remainers rioting?

(Because know we’re all educated and sensible.)

Well, I had a plan if No Deal was ever imminent to borrow my BILs’ guns, go to Westminster and take Andrea Leadsom hostage.

ThelmaRB · 13/01/2019 23:16

Finally watched Corbyn on Marr. I got a different impression than I was expecting from having read this thread earlier. I am no fan of Corbyn but I was interested to note that he was explicit about condemning no deal as a catastrophic outcome. He said labour would want to be in the single market and the customs union. He said he personally was not opposed to freedom of movement and would immediately legislate to allow current EU citizens the right to remain here and make it easy for the U.K. to bring in workers in all the areas we need them including agriculture and the NHS. Basically he was saying there were no red lines in which case I’m sure that yes, the EU would renegotiate because the WA is not great fir them either and it solves the Irish border problem. Frankly from what Corbyn said today, a Labour Brexit would be very similar to actually remaining. IF that’s the case,( but of course the devil’s in the details) I could actually vote Labour, not least because I no longer trust that a people’s vote would deliver remain. But it would need to be very clear in their manifesto.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 23:16

Murrison has to get a majority in the commons (unlikely)

AND

The EU would throw a fit at the underhanded attempt to banjax the backstop. It would defeat the entire purpose of the agreement.

Tatiana, you can say it, but no one will believe you cos you are still too sensible. Plus you are going for Leadsom. If you were really pissed off, you wouldn't pick her as the target.

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Tonsilss · 13/01/2019 23:20

If Corbyn said that then he's changed his position a lot. I wouldn't trust any of it.
Even if it's true, he's still against FOM, which would mean that the EU would not accept his proposal.

Sostenueto · 13/01/2019 23:20

Pity 52% beats 48% but I'm not a leaver I'm just pointing out that every action has consequences like a general strike, blockades etc. I would not for one second underestimate the feelings of the brexiteers if the referendum was overturned especially the hard brexiteers. They will not go away easily. In fact, the consequences of denying them could be really dire. And far from the vote to leave dying down I think quite the opposite would happen if a PV was to be announced, hence May,( if it is true) will revoke rather than a PV cos remain will lose again.

Peregrina · 13/01/2019 23:24

What exactly is wrong with compromise? If we trot over to the relationship board words like compromise, discussion, agreement and collaboration are wonderful yet in politics they are evil.

The way our House of Commons is physically structured is against this - with a chamber deliberately built to be too small, and two sided. I wish they had had the guts to say they would decamp elsewhere, found somewhere with decent conference facilities i.e. laid out in a horseshoe shape with a desk to write on and enough seats for all. I think then that the MPs wouldn't want to go back to the old system.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 23:27

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
In an eve of vote speech tomorrow in a top pro-Brexit area PM will say, acc to Downing St “based on the evidence of the last week, she now believes that MPs blocking Brexit is a more likely outcome than leaving with no deal”.

Oh good. Does this mean I don't have to listen to the speech now?

And she's still spouting bollocks. Cos its still the default and until something happens then No Deal remains the default and the on;y person who currently has ultimate influence to stop that, is her.

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Sostenueto · 13/01/2019 23:28

Doesn't matter how the MPs sit. They are only there to further their own careers and lifestyle before anything else. Then loyalty to their party. The country and its people come a long way behind both of those considerations as we will find out on Tuesday.

Sostenueto · 13/01/2019 23:39

We as remainders have no cause to riot as we actually lost the vote unfortunately and has nothing to do with intelligence. We would look ridiculous if we rioted just cos we lost. On the other hand you are more likely to riot if you won and then that decision was revoked. Again , nothing to do with intelligence, just a sense of injustice.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 23:43

Nick Boles and Oliver Letwin are coup plot leaders who are simultaneously supporting May as they plan to vote for her deal. (and Grieve too unless I've misread).

Which is confusing as hell.

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Sostenueto · 13/01/2019 23:47

I think that the MPs are not the only ones who need to listen to the people on both sides.

MissMalice · 13/01/2019 23:53

just a sense of injustice.

I’d say remainers feel a sense of injustice and rightly so.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 13/01/2019 23:55

We as remainders have no cause to riot as we actually lost the vote unfortunately and has nothing to do with intelligence

But plenty of remainers marched, 700,000 (even though we lost) and did so peacefully.

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 00:04

As I said you would look ridiculous if you rioted just because you lost! We have no reason to riot. Does someone who came in second in a race throw a strop cos they didn't win? ( actually some might). Thinking your superior in intelligence does not enamour those sitting on the fence to follow your cause. In fact, you could end up losing some supporters. Worth thinking about.....Hmm

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 00:07

You can feel upset cos you lost but not a sense of injustice. Unfortunately not enough voters turned up to vote remain that's not injustice that's just sods law.

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 00:10

Or complacency......

Shambu · 14/01/2019 00:23

Remainers could riot for the same reason as Leavers - anger and injustice that their future, their rights have been taken away from them. So no I don't buy that at all. Rioting is ridiculous anyway.

mybrainhurtsalot · 14/01/2019 00:38

Plenty of injustices for remain voters to feel upset about, just a few off the top of my head:

  • the Leave campaign broke electoral law
  • the Leave campaign used psyops on the British public
  • the Leave campaign continued to show ads after Jo Cox was murdered when both sides had agreed to pause the campaigning
  • the Leave campaign was based on outrageous lies, e.g. that Turkey is about to join the EU and we would not have a veto, £350 million for the NHS
  • the referendum had no safeguards built in because it was allegedly advisory
  • mounting evidence of foreign interference, both from Russia & the US
Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 00:39

This quote from the spectator after the referendum:-
There seems to me rather more hatred among the Remainers, or ‘remnant ponces’ as Julie Burchill called them, than there ever was among those who wished to get the hell out. Hatred towards the elderly, hatred towards people who don’t live in London, hatred towards people who do not share their views. But it is the mindset of the liberal elite that hate could not possibly exist within them, just as they are utterly convinced that they are our intellectual superiors. All the Brexit voters were thick, whereas we know so much better.

I do not under any circumstances want to be viewed as above. That is why I do not condemn leavers or tarnish them with the same brush as ' rent a mob' yobs.