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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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tobee · 13/01/2019 20:28

Not sure if it's been mentioned here before, but Laura Kuenssberg mentioned something about a coupon general election being whispered on Brexitcast before Christmas. The original one happened in 1918. This one would be a general election on just this one issue. However, pre Christmas was a long time ago. And I'm not sure we'd be any further along,

tobee · 13/01/2019 20:29

Not sure if it's been mentioned here before, but Laura Kuenssberg mentioned something about a coupon general election being whispered on Brexitcast before Christmas. The original one happened in 1918. This one would be a general election on just this one issue. However, pre Christmas was a long time ago. And I'm not sure we'd be any further along,

tobee · 13/01/2019 20:32

Sorry about double post

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 20:35

Alex Wickham @alexwickham
NEW: Senior Tories are urging No10 to make clear it will suspend the whip from any Conservative MP who backs the 'coup' attempt to take down the government. They say if it fails to do so, it will appear No10 is using the threat to win votes for May's deal

A former cabinet minister has called on No10 and Tory chairman Brandon Lewis to act to kill off the coup threat:

A game of chicken in the Tory Party is emerging.

The government can ill afford to remove the whip from any MP. Look how strangely quick the whip was returned to Charlie Elphicke and Andrew Griffiths in the face of a big vote.

So will these MPs bow to the threat?

These MPs have also to a man said they would continue to support May as PM and would back her in a no confidence vote.

Unless May persues a no deal. In which case, several have already said they WOULD resign the whip.

Would these MPs really do that? Can May afford to do it? What will Brexiteers do if May does nothing? Who is going to blink first.

Several of these are MPs who are already facing deselection attempts in their constituencies and this doesn't seem to be changing their resolve over trying to block No Deal.

So why would having the whip remove carry any more of a threat?

If they do have the whip removed or were deselected would these MPs stand as independent candidates or defect?

If they do have the whip removed then the chances of a GE might go up anyway.

I am not sure what no 10 have to gain by removing the whip. It doesn't seem like much of a threat and might serve to provoke a wider split in the party rather solve the problem.

Not that there is a solution. May can not square the circle that is Brexit.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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Moussemoose · 13/01/2019 20:36

There are different forms of PR. The Italians traditionally used a list system which is the most proportional and the least stable.

They have changed their system.

PR is not one system.

BrieAndOatcakes · 13/01/2019 20:37

Great intro Red.

Member745520 · 13/01/2019 20:40

News The Independent

uk.news.yahoo.com/more-100-meps-every-corner-174447151.html

MEPs from nearly every country in the EU have signed a heartfelt joint letter to the British public asking them to reconsider their decision to leave the bloc to prevent an “unfolding Brexit disaster”.
    757Reactions 

and

Taken from Deutsche Welle today
www.dw.com/en/opinion-britains-hour-of-destiny/a-47044392

frumpety · 13/01/2019 20:45

Was thinking today , does anyone else remember the fuel protests of 2000 ? The number of vehicles on UK roads has increased by 10 million since 2000. Really wouldn't be difficult to cause absolute chaos to the UK road system if you wanted to. Although there are of course certain parts of the current road network that might not notice the difference Wink

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 20:46

Should food or medicine be given priority on no deal ferries?

Are you on Gove's side or Hancock's side Mrs May?

Maybe she should be asking what would Jesus do?

Feed the five thousand and heal the sick?

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 20:51

amp.ft.com/content/3eb997ca-14c9-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e?__twitter_impression=true
Brexit brinkmanship: playing chicken over Theresa May’s deal
Failure to win Commons approval will intensify the brinkmanship that has left all sides believing they can secure their own outcome

This is the most fabulous of quotes:

In cabinet last week Mr Gove said those hoping for the “perfect Brexit” were like “ swingers in their mid-fifties” hoping that Scarlett Johannson might turn up at the party.

I guess that explains Boris Johnson in one fell swoop!!

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frumpety · 13/01/2019 20:55

Not that I am in any way advocating such activity for the record.

frumpety · 13/01/2019 20:57

That goes for swinging or disabling the road network Grin

Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 20:58

frumpety
DS was born in the middle of the 2000 fuel shortages.
We siphoned fuel between our cars to make sure DH could still work.
I hiked to the shops with a two year old and a baby in a sling and got the toddler to pull shopping home in her dolly buggy as I hauled the rest in her real buggy.

My MiL remembered hiking through the winter of 63 with her first baby.

People have short memories..

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 21:06

Some details on procedure / timings on Tuesday

Carl Dinnen @carldinnen
A short thread on the Meaningful Vote.

Voting is due to start after the Prime Minister wraps up the debate at 7pm on Tuesday.

In December the number of amendments that could be voted on was limited to 6. This time the limit has been lifted.

There are currently 13 amendments on the order paper. Each division takes around 15 minutes.

So if the Speaker calls them all the vote on the main motion could be as late as 10pm with a result at 10.15pm.

And more amendments could yet be tabled.

Potentially making life difficult for anyone with a news bulletin on at around, say, 10pm....

@itvnews #newsatten

Jessica elgot @jessicaelgot
First edition print deadlines also looking... interesting

None of this mentions what happens if there is some sort constitutional motion which surely would provoke a points of order issue. Last weeks took an hour for Bercow to resolve.

I would not be surprised if the HoC ended up running even later than that.

I should imagine that things will start getting crazy around mid afternoon with speculation.

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 21:08

How big is a big government defeat?

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 21:08

Kevin Schofield@polhomeeditor
Brexiteer MP Sir Geoffrey Clifton Brown becomes the 4th Tory to jump ship and say he will now be voting FOR May's deal. Tells the Westminster Hour: "Basically I still think it’s a thoroughly bad deal ... I just think that the possibility of No Brexit must be seriously considered"

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Cheekysquirrel · 13/01/2019 21:12

So if (when) the deal is voted out and loses what options does TM then have really for her ‘plan B’ that she has to produce within three days? Does she have ANY options??

frumpety · 13/01/2019 21:12

RTB can people like the MP mentioned above say they are going to do one thing and then do something entirely different when it comes to the actual vote ? What would the fallout be for them personally if they change their minds at the last minute ?

falcon5 · 13/01/2019 21:18

Has anyone else had this gibberish on their social.media from.UK yellow jacket accounts banging on about their magna Carta rights if they don't get no deal?

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 21:22

{ Does she have ANY options??}
In an optimistic sort of way, from that letter from MEPs a scheme to turn things into a Revoke might be hatched. May suffering from stress, promises to look at a couple of red lines and so on. Promise by the EU to have a look at FoM, a sprinkling of fudge, all manner of things.
The main issue with revoke is the jingoistic bollocks that the press and leavers will spout for evermore about 'defeating the EU'.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 21:36

can people like the MP mentioned above say they are going to do one thing and then do something entirely different when it comes to the actual vote ? What would the fallout be for them personally if they change their minds at the last minute

Of course they can. They've already changed their mind once recently. They just have to cite a new piece of information that makes it impossible to go through with their reluctant decision despite their deep fears about No Deal. They just have to state how they have to act in what they believe the national interest to be, and what feel the mood amongst their constituents is.

A few noble sounding words for your local press, and no one else will even notice in the midst of the chaos of next week.

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 21:44

Tomorrows newspapers

'Duty to carry out referendum'

No Theresa, your duty is to do what is in the national interest. You seem not to understand constitutional basics.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 21:50

The Indie still focusing on a PV. Though what their lead says doesn't actually seem to refer to a PV. Just parliament having control rather than the government.

A cross party group is working to table legislation that would deliver a final say. Two bills - to establish the legal framework for a public vote and propose another referendum - could be put forward as soon as Wednesday, The Independent understands.

and

Tory MP Dominic Grieve said the Final Say bills would offer the government an "escape hatch" as there was no majority in the Commons for either Ms May's agreement or a no-deal exit.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 21:51

Here's the Indie.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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SusanWalker · 13/01/2019 21:56

So we had brexit to 'make parliament sovereign' and now they want to junk that and make the people sovereign. Or more likely people who believe in the same things as them. Something tells me they are Freeman of the land types.

I'm starting to think that the propensity of people to believe in conspiracy theories, think the deep state is thwarting them at every move and to be anti vaxxers is just nature's way of cutting down the population of humans before we trash the planet.