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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
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53
RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 19:08

Was it Jo Swinson on QT this week?

Yes.

Nish Kumar nailed Brexit with his groundhog day comment.

OP posts:
MissMalice · 13/01/2019 19:10

Nish Kumar was brilliant.
Did you see the Yellow Jacket Lady has her own twitter account now? I’d vote for her.

Peregrina · 13/01/2019 19:20

In what way is Layla Moran a 'car crash'? She is a million times better than her predecessor, the useless Nicola Blackwood. Or going back even further when John Patten our MP he declared that half our children were below average educationally. Admittedly, he didn't say which average he was talking about, but most would assume the mean, and he being an Oxford educated man, ought to have known this.

UnnecessaryFennel · 13/01/2019 19:24

After the discussion on the previous thread about male/female tolerance for Corbyn's position... DP has just said that he is leaving the Labour Party too.

He has previously considered the idea of standing as a councillor, and up until last week he was still fairly defensive of Labour, but I think this morning's performance on Marr was the final straw.

So, we have both given up. Lifelong Labour voters. No more.

Motheroffourdragons · 13/01/2019 19:25

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 19:30

In the early 1980s, we had a hard right Tory govt and a Labour party led by a leftwing firebrand

  • both leaders were at least competent though, especially MrsT

This meant a huge swathe of people felt they had noone to vote for and were very disillusioned about politics
and MrsT's de-industrialisation was already beginning to lower standards of living for many
Sounds a bit familiar ?

Then the SDP Lib Alliance came along - but FPTP killed off their hopes

The problem under FPTP to date is that any new party basically has to replace either Tory or Labour and grind it down to single figure %, while winning over some voters from the other main party.

In the past and currently too, the centre does not look capable of taking sufficiently large numbers from both parties to have a fully 3-party system.

Lonelyheart2020 · 13/01/2019 19:30

Sorry I am just reading first half of thread so the WA is not happening ??

Lonelyheart2020 · 13/01/2019 19:31

I meant WA vote ?

Hazardswan · 13/01/2019 19:35

Shock @ guardian article. If the vote fails tuesday I can see May brusseling up and we extend to July. She's stubborn.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 19:35

If UKIP had elected MPs commensurate with their votes, early on, then their policies could have been challenged properly
and the shine would have worn off.

The party would probably have collapsed into squabbles much earlier, as they were such a chaotic - and financially corrupt - shower

I don't agree that keeping UKIP to 0 or 1 MPs is worth all these years of a paralysing Tweedledum & Tweedledee of gross incompetence, as we switch between Tory and Labour

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 19:38

Well, May would have to make out some sort of case to the EU for extending,
i.e. what is in it for them

I suppose putting off No Deal in the vague hope that the HoC will eventually agree to something could be enough.

The EU are pragmatic and they realise - unlike many idiot UK politicians - how disastrous No Deal would be.
It probably depends how far along their prepping is

MissMalice · 13/01/2019 19:40

I have always been a supporter of FPTP - it keeps UKIP and the likes well out of the way.
And yet here we are with a rising far right movement and leaving the EU.

I honestly feel we’d have been better off with them have a proportional number of seats so people could see how truly ineffective they are as politicians.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 19:43

"UK Govt Committments to NI and its integral place in the UK"

Matthew O'Toole@MatthewOToole2

Leaving aside the detail of the proposals, this has to be the most explicitly unionist statement made by a British Government since at least Thatcher.
The DUP has unquestionably shifted the tenor of UK policy...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/769954/NIIunilateralcommitmentss-99JanuaryFINAL.pdf

HesterThrale · 13/01/2019 19:49

One consequence of the Brexit fiasco might be that some new and different characters are motivated to get into politics. (As has happened in the U.S.) They have been politicised.
I reckon people would vote for Mike Galsworthy, Femi and other OFOC people, Carol Cadwalladr, Amelia Gentleman, Rachel Clarke etc. Could be good to have a clear-out.

tobee · 13/01/2019 19:50

@1tisILeClerc Grin

Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 19:52

I have always been a supporter of FPTP - it keeps UKIP and the likes well out of the way.
I have to utterly differ on this.
I deal with UK councillors a LOT
They are ferkin usless. Very few last the full four year term and those that do get voted out.
THe best thing to happen to the Kippers is to make them have to make decisions and stand by them - cos they can't and they crumble
the minutes of Thanet DC are better than telly in my sad world

FPTP is no longer fit for purpose
a decent version of PR would allow the Tories and Labour to split
and the Kippers to self destruct

and I will never forgive the kippers for hitting my former boss and his son in the face with a hammer

Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 19:54

UK = UKIP

tobee · 13/01/2019 19:54

Another thing against proportional representation is you get coalitions that constantly fall out and have to realign/have more elections.

Maybe not that different from now though; it's within parties that the falling out is happening.

LouiseCollins28 · 13/01/2019 19:57

@HesterThrale interesting point about potentially getting new people into politics. Could you or someone else please clarify what “OFOC” means though, not an acronym I’ve come across before? Thanks

HesterThrale · 13/01/2019 20:03

Louise ‘Our Future Our Choice’. Femi is the chief spokesperson.

Moussemoose · 13/01/2019 20:05

If extreme parties gain seats well..... democracy.

They have a right to a voice n matter how distasteful. And once tested and examined thy usually fall apart.

What exactly is wrong with compromise? If we trot over to the relationship board words like compromise, discussion, agreement and collaboration are wonderful yet in politics they are evil.

Getting a little of what you want while agreeing to disagree is not bad politics it's life. Coalition and compromise are not dirty words they are life lived.

Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 20:10

tobee
Another thing against proportional representation is you get coalitions that constantly fall out and have to realign/have more elections.
I'm of the generation that remembers Italy as the poster child of how NOT to do PR coalitions
but
as Italians regularly point out
that was in the 70's
its all rather different now

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 20:11

A little light relief

MissMalice · 13/01/2019 20:21

@mikegalsworthy

“I reckon we should have a Two-for-one-dum...

Roll the General Election and People's Vote into one ballot sheet.

Question 1:
Pick your party

Question 2:
Pick your Brexit/Remain preference

Then the party that wins has to enact the course chosen. 🤓👍”

I like this.

tobee · 13/01/2019 20:22

I agree re Italy @1tisILeClerc. Thought other pr countries had difficulties though? Isn't Germany pr and Merkel has a tough time. Been in power a long time but constantly under pressure? I should be pro proportional representation but it worries me we might get an out of the frying pan situation.