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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
Thread gallery
53
Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 17:30

RTB
Triggering a General Election is all well and good
but unless one party stands on a "represent the 48%" ticket
it will solve nothing

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 17:31

Yes, word here is that the UK govt & HoC are in such chaos that without an extension we'd have No Deal.

At this rate we'll be in perpetual extension until a GE, probably even years later
Meanwhile, many foreign-owned - and some UK - businesses would be putting off UK investment, or winding down to move out

Maybe eventually we'd drift into Revoke because nearly everyone has got bored to death with Brexit ?
< hopeful >

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 17:32

If Corbyn stands on a Brexit ticket, he could lose so many Remain votes that FPTP would give May / her successor a landslide

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 17:35

Letter of Assurances. Cos May couldn't get anywhere on shifting the backstop:

katya adler @BBCkatyaadler
No10 says EU must decide if it will release a letter of assurances before the vote on Tuesday but EU sources tell me they are waiting for the go-ahead advice from Downing Street 1

The letter could have been released Saturday night ahead of No10 Sunday media blitz but wasn’t .. It could be released tonight or tomorrow ahead of vote .. OR EU/No10 may decide better not since 2

The EU letter will I’m told contain assurances/explanations of current deal and nothing new. The letter would come from Juncker/Tusk in Brussels and they can’t change the #Brexit deal without negotiation with and go ahead from 27 EU leaders 3

Letter could underline how no-one - neither the PM, not EU - wants to enter into backstop deal; that it is designed purely as a fall-back scenario and it is not designed to last; that both sides would be legally bound to make ‘best endevours’ to complete new trade deal asap BUT 4

No10 and EU aware these assurances prob/definitely not enough to swing vote on Tues. They hope it could help improve numbers but may ultimately decide that’s so unlikely at this stage, it’s better to hold fire for now 5

What will EU do if deal fails on Tues? Reason they’re being so tight-lipped is bc EU wants pressure on MPs to stop the chaos + to focus not on personal political ambitions /#Brexit theory: Noway/but rather on what the EU sees as reality ie the deal 6

It’s a sort of chicken/egg situation:Message from UK is perceived in EU as: “yes, we’re leaving and in a mess about it but you EU need to do something for us to help us move on” BUT EU thinks things have to change in UK before it makes a significant move 7

Sense in EU is that MPs need to either A) coalesce around something concrete so that PM can then say to Brussels: “If you re-negotiate X with us then I can guarantee that I’ll have enough MPs onboard to get this deal through OR 8

B) The PM’s red lines would change to -for example -say the UK would stay in a permanent customs union . The EU has always said their parameters would change if the UK’s did. This #Brexit deal (incl backstop) was negotiated on premise of UK leaving single mkt and customs union 9

Even if case is A) then EU would prob re-negotiate (even though says it won’t now) but ONLY when timing right for them ie when EU is persuaded that a particular (realistic in EU eyes) move wld definitely get the deal passed in UK. However 10

There’s no inkling of a sign that EU is prepared to give up the backstop. EU and UK both signed up to protecting Irish border but the current form of the backstop has evolved in negotiations. It could possibly eventually be tweaked if no deal staring all in face BUT 11

EU would only ever act with Dublin onboard and only -as I said- if Brussels believed a particular move would a) certainly get the deal passed in UK. We are far from having that kind of clarity in UK right now and 12

b) If the that particular move were deemed “worth it” from EU perspective ie if it got the deal passed so EU/UK could move on to trade talks (much more important phase in EU eyes) and end the Brexit uncertainty for EU citizens and business 13

EU also will take into account what moves it can “get away with” to the extent that it won’t appear that the UK did indeed have cake and eat it with Brexit and won’t serve to encourage other Eurosceptic nations 14

Remember EU does sometimes move even when it has insisted it won’t. Brussels insisted for a long time that UK-wide backstop was impossible .. until it became possible BUT that example has made EU jumpier than ever about timing and presentation because 15

UK-wide backstop came at UK behest - it was not an EU proposal -and a number of EU countries really don’t like it - and yet the UK wide backstop is now thrown back in EU face as if it were their trap to keep UK in customs union 16

But all this is hypothesising for further down the road. For now the EU will watch and wait for Tuesday vote and will then begin a conversation amongst its members as to what next 17

However there seems across board EU consensus that Article 50 won’t automatically be extended by EU. Only -as says one contact- if the extension serves to resolve this Brexit phase, not just to prolong it” 18

In conclusion: EU is pragmatic organisation and its members want to avoid no deal so there is more wiggle room than is being admitted right now BUT this does not mean EU will avoid a no deal #Brexit at any price. 19

Big problem is also that Theresa May doesn’t carry parliament with her. At beginning of #Brexit process a high level EU contact told me successful negotiations wld need EU unity on one side + on the other a UK PM strong enough to do a deal in Brussels and sell it back home.. 20

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 17:37

^but unless one party stands on a "represent the 48%" ticket
it will solve nothing^

I'd probably, unfortunately agree with BigChoc. It might solve something but wouldn't provide us with a plan either. Just more problems.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 17:46

There was a poster on here from worried about their Italian parents a while back, from memory Sad

Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 17:47

If Corbyn stands on a Brexit ticket, he could lose so many Remain votes that FPTP would give May / her successor a landslide
But sadly he seems so stubborn / stupid that he cannot hear it even when people like Hattersley spell it out in words of one syllable

Motheroffourdragons · 13/01/2019 17:49

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 17:50

So we'd be left with these people still in power
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/13/schools-census-used-for-immigration-enforcement-minister-says

MissMalice · 13/01/2019 17:52

If Corbyn stands on a Brexit ticket, he could lose so many Remain votes that FPTP would give May / her successor a landslide

Doesn’t that assume that the remain voters that feel let down with Corbyn would vote for a Tory candidate instead of a Labour one? That seems unlikely to me.

I’m in a true blue area. If Corbyn sticks with a Leave manifesto I can’t vote Labour. I’ll vote Lib Dem.

It’s got to be another hung parliament surely - will anyone dare to use the “coalition of chaos” smear at this point Grin

OhYouBadBadKitten · 13/01/2019 17:54

Why aren't the Lib Dem's getting their voice heard even now?

BiglyBadgers · 13/01/2019 17:54

I am feeling more and more pessimistic about the chances of parliament being able to form a majority agreement on any single way forward right now. I don't get the feeling that there is any proposal that is gaining any significant support, just lots of small to medium groups popping up with their own unicorns but no majority behind it.

The problem seems to be that too many have either immovable views on either side or have dug themselves holes they are unable or unwilling to climb out of. Everyone thinks they are right and any other option would be disastrous.

The fact that at this late stage we can't even agree what options are on the table let alone which is most likely illustrates to me just how far away from any sort of consensus we are.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 17:57

I suppose if the EU is 'OK' with putting off things to July if Labour could ditch Corbyn somehow it might be enough time to get a 'Remain' Labour opposition/government together. All we need is to be rid of Corbyn, a decent new leader, some sticky back plastic and an old pop bottle.

BiglyBadgers · 13/01/2019 17:58

Doesn’t that assume that the remain voters that feel let down with Corbyn would vote for a Tory candidate instead of a Labour one? That seems unlikely to me.

I think it's more that their vote would split between multiple other parties. My labour friends mutter about lib Dems or greens. Many wouldn't vote lib Dems. In some areas I could see independents getting some of the vote. Others may just become disengaged and stay home. This split would result in Tories getting majorities if they aren't also losing votes to other parties as well.

prettybird · 13/01/2019 17:59

I'm starting to muse whether the SNP should set up an affiliate pro-Remain offshoot party for England : filling the political vacuum that Corbyn Labour has created, but one that would be pro Scottish self-determination as well as pro EU. Wink

I know it had a big influx of English based members after 23rd June, with people impressed by Sturgeon, who seemed to be the only grown up politician who had thought of the consequences.

I'm only half joking Confused

MissMalice · 13/01/2019 18:00

The fact that at this late stage we can't even agree what options are on the table let alone which is most likely illustrates to me just how far away from any sort of consensus we are.

All outcomes have big issues:
Remain - people lose trust in democracy
WA - abide by EU rules with no voice
No deal - outright catastrophe.

What other options even are there?

BiglyBadgers · 13/01/2019 18:01

I am sure May and the Tories would be delighted for labour to have a leadership crises and election right now. They would think it was bloody Christmas. All the papers would take their eyes off the Tory shit show to dedicate pages and pages to picking apart all the labour leadership candidates.

BiglyBadgers · 13/01/2019 18:03

What other options even are there?

Real options or magical unicorns being touted by various MPs?

Violetparis · 13/01/2019 18:04

If Labour stand on a Remain ticket they would lose Leave voters. They can't win (literally) either way.

tobee · 13/01/2019 18:09

They'd have to get Corbyn to stand down of course. Because members would probably still vote for him if there was a challenge. Who would replace Corbyn? Can't see anyone sensible with the current membership. Grrr!

Someone tell me I'm wrong.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 18:13

{Remain - people lose trust in democracy}
A delay and a concerted effort to root out the lying and dodgy money might help.
WA - abide by EU rules with no voice
That is only until we leave, which if the UK pulled it's collective finger out could be relatively quick.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 18:15

{They'd have to get Corbyn to stand down of course.}
Allotment sheds are dangerous places with sharp garden tools, dangerous chemicals and the like. Besides, the door may get stuck and no one notices.

MissMalice · 13/01/2019 18:16

That is only until we leave, which if the UK pulled it's collective finger out could be relatively quick.
However we leave, we aren’t going to be the rule makers.

I think a key problem is that those in power still don’t understand why people voted to leave. They need to identify why the genuine general issue is and resolve that.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 18:21

{However we leave, we aren’t going to be the rule makers. }
That is what the leaver's want. The WA is withdrawing so at the end of transition the UK will be out.
The 'degree' of out is to be determined during negotiations but as far as I am aware it can be as 'out' as no deal, but without the deaths while getting there.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 13/01/2019 18:25

Allotment sheds are dangerous places with sharp garden tools, dangerous chemicals and the like

I’m not one to wish harm to anyone normally. But I really wish Jeremy would knock himself out stepping on a garden rake. Spend most of the year in a coma and wake up in the autumn to a Labour government run by Keir or Cooper.

One but dream.