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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 16:24

A question .....
If by some fluke the WA goes through, will the UK be subject to the Offshore financing rules that the EU brings in on 2nd April ?

Might that be why the ERG are so desperate to kill it ?

bellinisurge · 13/01/2019 16:31

Ta1kinPeace with one look your cat makes more sense than any politician Grin

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 16:32

the Corbyn interview but I got the impression he was agreeing with brexiteers that the problems in the left behind post industrial towns were caused by the EU. That the EU had failed to fix these problems

Was it the EUs job ? Or the UKs ?

SusanWalker · 13/01/2019 16:35

Just had an email from the Labour Party asking for stories of life under this tory government to help formulate questions for pmqs. So he's not going to be pushing on.brexit the day after the vote fails then?

This is the text:

this week Theresa May will be taking her half-baked Brexit deal to the Commons while her cabinet and this country are in disarray

Under the Tories, wages are lower, homelessness has doubled, thousands of police have been cut and the NHS is in a state of emergency. Now, on top of eight years of Tory failure, we face a bad deal that would not protect people's jobs and their rights.

Share your stories of the reality of life under this Tory Government, and together we can challenge the Prime Minister at PMQs.

Here's my question for PMQs

At PMQs, Jeremy Corbyn will put your questions to Theresa May. Let us know what you'd like him to ask this week so he can continue to confront our Prime Minister with the real issues facing the British people.

Let's keep up the pressure and make her listen.

The Labour Party

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 16:36

{Might that be why the ERG are so desperate to kill it ?}
I think this is the case, yes.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 16:36

TiP if you mean ATAD (EU Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive)
then iirc, the UK has already passed some of the legislation for this.

With the WA, it would of course have to comply fully in transition and probably beyond.

In the event of No Deal, the UK could cancel any laws already put into place that are just for the EU.
However, I thought ATAD was just the EU version of a global tightening up - a UN directive originally ?

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 16:38

A question .....If by some fluke the WA goes through, will the UK be subject to the Offshore financing rules that the EU brings in on 2nd April ?Might that be why the ERG are so desperate to kill it ?

There was a tiny little piece about that a few days ago. Sorry I can't recall where, but I'm pretty certain it's tone was critical of the fact that the UK still hasn't introduced the transparency legislation as per some international agreement. The point being that it was placing these places at a disadvantage.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 16:42

{this week Theresa May will be taking her half-baked Brexit deal to the Commons while her cabinet and this country are in disarray }
Is the Labour party run by 15 year olds?
If this is the sort of crap they can come up with it would explain why there is a bit of a problem.
Many may not like it but the WA is not 'half baked'.

Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 16:43

BigChoc
I know that updating the offshore rules is a worldwide project, but the EU is the first Bloc to actually make it happen.
And I've always thought that it was not a coincidence that A50 was invoked to be complete before 2nd April.

DGR
Yup its the Company Register rules that overseas territories and dependencies should have brought in but the UK government is dragging its heels and knuckles

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 16:51

DG WTO terms exist, but would be a terrible handicap to UK exports

  • no country in the world trades solely on WTO terms and for good reasons.

The UK still hasn't sorted out all its WTO quotas etc - thank you, Liam Fox - but the WTO rules allows countries years to use their own proposed quotas while sorting this out
e.g. the EU traded for about 15 years under its quotas for when it had only 15 members

Of course, the rules are very loose and there is nothing to stop any other WTO member which objects to these quotas from imposing trade sanctions on lonely UK, stuck out on its own.

Under WTO rules, all the other countries would have to treat the UK just like any other country with which it doesn't have a trade deal.
So all would impose:

  • Tariffs - variable % depending on type of goods

  • NTBs (Non-Tariff Barriers)

e.g. customs, checks on all the certifications, Rules of Origin, phytosanitary checks ..... with inspection rates of 1 / 10 / 20 / 50 / 100% depending on the type of goods

This would cause delays and increased costs,
especially for exports to the EU and those countries with EU trade deals.

UK businesses would likely lose a lot of contracts;
some businesses would leave the UK partly or wholely; others would suffer significant losses, possibly go broke

Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 16:56

and the WTO is currently on its knees because Trump is blocking appointments to the dispute resolution team

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 13/01/2019 17:03

Thank you RTB.

WTO terms exist, but would be a terrible handicap to UK exports
- no country in the world trades solely on WTO terms and for good reasons.

Apparently only Mauritania does. Its GDP is 0.2% of that of the UK and up to 17% of its population lives in slavery.
medium.com/@MrWeeble/who-actually-trades-solely-under-wto-rules-1b6127ce33c6

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 17:04

YouGov are listening ...

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 17:09

The UK still hasn't sorted out all its WTO quotas etc - thank you, Liam Fox

Er, wasn't there a news story very recently that he'd signed the best trade deal in history with Switzerland ?

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-news-liam-fox-urged-to-clarify-the-uks-future-relationship-with-switzerland-after-leaving-the-a4037326.html

(TL;DR - No )

Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 17:10

This just popped up on my FB
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-46836957

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 17:12

Mauritania does have a trade deal

  • there is literally no country in the world trading solely on WTO terms with every other country

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1911

Mauritania signs the regional Economic Partnership Agreement between West Africa and the EU

prettybird · 13/01/2019 17:16

Singingbabooshka - iirc, right at the bottom of that Medium article, the guy edits it to say that he's found out that even Mauritania has a couple of trade agreements Shock

So the UK would be the only country in the world trading solely on WTO terms Shock

Another example of UK exceptionalism Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 17:17

Yes, Fox managed a trade deal with Switzerland
and the Dancing Queen has "promises" of deals with some African countries
Probably a couple of others lurking too.

However, the WTO quotas & terms - for trade with all the other countries in the world - are not settled.
The US, NZ, Russia and about 10 other countries objected

We'd have to proceed with the WTO terms we want and hope those countries aren't sufficiently annoyed to impose trade sanctions or punitive tariffs while we're negotiating over WTO.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 17:21

TiP That 91-year old Italian woman with Alzheimers who has lived in Britain for so many decades Sad

So even communities like those Italins who were invited to work here in the 1950s & 1960s, long before we joined the EU
are also required to apply to stay after Brexit

So bloody callous 😡

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 17:22

Guardian reporting Brexit could be put back to July by EU.
It just gets worse!

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BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 17:25

Her DD had to take her 91 year old mum with Alzheimers to have her fingerprints taken etc to get biometric ID !

Unbelievable
This govt are utter bastards to anyone not "British-bred" 😡

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 17:26

{Er, wasn't there a news story very recently that he'd signed the best trade deal in history with Switzerland }
Was that 5 for 4 Toblerones at the duty free?

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 17:27

DH's response:

"Thats enough to likely trigger a GE.
Its not very helpful."

I am currently reserving judgment.

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 17:28

From the Guardian article

Senior EU sources said that a further, lengthier extension could be offered at a later date should a general election or second referendum be called although the upcoming May elections for the European parliament would create complications.

One EU diplomat said: “The first session of the parliament is in July. You would need UK MEPs there if the country is still a member state. But things are not black and white in the European Union.”

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