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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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prettybird · 13/01/2019 15:26

Don’t personally think she will cancel it now, but never say never.

....but there again, May also said that she wouldn't call a snap GE Wink

On the ineffectiveness up until now of Westminster and how all over the place our MPs, let alone the Government, are, I must congratulate Red on the prescience of her titles for this series of threads: Westministenders truly reflects the soap opera nature of what is going on Grin if only it really were fiction Sad

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 15:27

PARLY @ParlyApp (thread continued)
At the time shadow leader of the House @RhonddaBryant said: “Overturning that equality of all Members, which has stood the test of 800 years, is a big step to take.”

He also called for a constitutional convention. and said it was “a thoroughly disreputable way of changing the constitution of this country”. The words “coup” and “constitutional crisis” were used by other MPs during the debate.

The Cameron government ignored all those concerns and used its majority to vote these changes to standing orders through.

Nowadays of course - with the honourable exception of @DanielGover - nobody pays the slightest bit of notice to EVEL procedures.

But a future majority government could scrap them any time it likes. Or amend or change other standing orders such as those setting out the times the House sits, or how the Speaker is elected.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 13/01/2019 15:28

Farage et al who have unleashed the mob have far more to fear if when brexshit goes badly.

I would find it hard to shed any tears for him. The only Leavers I would feel sympathy for would be those who thought they were voting to support the NHS.

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 15:29

But a future majority government could scrap them any time it likes. Or amend or change other standing orders such as those setting out the times the House sits, or how the Speaker is elected.

The key word being majority . As things stand - fuck all can be done. Good news for Bercow for now.

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 15:30

The only Leavers I would feel sympathy for would be those who thought they were voting to support the NHS.

They'd have done better to have lost some weight, cut down on drinking and (where applicable) giving up smoking.

borntobequiet · 13/01/2019 15:32

I emailed my MP on Tuesday and was surprised to get a response by letter on Friday. She does always respond personally - I wouldn’t vote for her (Tory) but a decent constituency MP - and generally addresses any specific points at least adequately. But it’s often a couple of weeks before I hear from her.
This letter was different. It was a template and referred to the large amount of correspondence she had received on the subject of Brexit and the many concerns expressed. It namechecked businesses and farmers. (I live in the rural West Midlands, but there are a surprising number of small and relatively hi-tech businesss operating out of small business parks set up by diversifying farmers as well as others. We have excellent transport links to all regions). It read as though it had been rather hurriedly written by someone in a bit of a panic. The MP is a staunch May supporter, and this is a Leave (but not very) area. The wheels are coming off big time, if you ask me. I wonder if Labour MPs are getting the same.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 15:37

{This would mean the UK would not have to obey EU rules. Instead, it would need to follow World Trade Organization terms on trade.

is it just me, or is that last sentence just plain wrong ?}
I think they oversimplified it and it has lost it's real meaning or at least fails to hint at the severe problems it would bring.

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 15:39

I wonder if Labour MPs are getting the same.

My Labour MP has replied that she won't support the WA, and notes that her constituency voted Remain in a thinly veiled dig at Corbyn. It was also a template reply, but addressed personally and written from her, not an aide.

But then we have two massive universities in Edgbaston, so are probably terminally elite.

Loletta · 13/01/2019 15:40

Jo Maugham QC@JolyonMaugham

Pretty clear from #Marr that if he wins his vote of confidence a Corbyn Manifesto would support Leave
and that if he loses his vote of confidence he won't push for a Referendum.

Thanks Mr Corbyn. If you're reading this, be aware that this exactly the opposite of what I wish you would do and next time a GE comes around, I will be voting for LibDems in my very marginal Labour/Libdem constituency.

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 15:47

This would mean the UK would not have to obey EU rules. Instead, it would need to follow World Trade Organization terms on trade.

I think they oversimplified it and it has lost it's real meaning or at least fails to hint at the severe problems it would bring.

My understanding was that the idea the UK can "fall into" WTO rules in the event of a no-deal was a load of cobblers, and that each country the UK wished to trade with would need to negotiate separately as there's no proforma "WTO rules only" treaty. Which means before any trading happens the UK needs to bend over and take it deep[1] sign deals with countries individually.

[1] Possibly explaining the continued existence of Liam Fox ....

I'm happy to be corrected, but I recall that was one of the earlier Brexiteer load of bollocks to be shown to be plain wrong ????

Peregrina · 13/01/2019 15:50

....but there again, May also said that she wouldn't call a snap GE

Ah yes, she did, but she didn't get the whopping great majority she was banking on. So she might pause for thought. Having said that, being totally pig headed, she's carried on as though she had a convincing majority, so who knows?

Mrsr8 · 13/01/2019 15:50

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Mrsr8 · 13/01/2019 15:52

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Mrsr8 · 13/01/2019 15:52

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DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 15:53

Am I right in assuming the ERG headbangers will vote against the WA?

Given the noise they have made, I think they'd have to. Otherwise, what's the point of them. It's an existential situation for them.

Luckily for them, the vote will never happen, so they'll never have to wrestle with that worry.

prettybird · 13/01/2019 15:54

Does it not also mean that just because the UK has to accept everything on WTO terms (tariffs), it doesn't address the EU side of the equation: the NTBs that will need be in place because of the EU single market Confused? The EU will no longer be able to assume that everything meets EU standards and will therefore need to see all the paperwork to check that the necessary regulations have been met before those products can move freely round the single market Hmm which will mean massive bottlenecks at points of entry Sad

And of course, services aren't covered by WTO Shock

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 15:55

... I think I can now articulate why I think that vote will never happen ... because if it did, it would seriously damage the Tory party.

If it doesn't happen, the Tory party continues.

Peregrina · 13/01/2019 15:56

I don't think May can rely on the recently knighted to support her. What has Deadwood Redwood got to lose by not voting for the WA? He's moved his money out of the UK, so he's alright.

MissMalice · 13/01/2019 15:56

My understanding is that the WA is worse for the ERG (and their bank balances) than remaining. I wouldn’t sign if I were them.

prettybird · 13/01/2019 15:59

Re May and pulling the vote, remember her plaintiff cry during her disastrous GE campaign:

"Nothing's changed.... nothing's changed! "

GrinGrin

Dh and I wail that at each other frequently Wink

Ta1kinPeace · 13/01/2019 16:00

A second referendum would just turn into another outpouring of anger.
Parliament has to take control.
Or let my cat do it.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 16:05

My understanding is that the WA is worse for the ERG (and their bank balances) than remaining.

Their "disappointment" with the deal is that it makes the GFA and it's requirements the overarching priority for subsequent negotiations with the EU deciding whether the GFA is being upheld.

Until the UK can show it's complied with the GFA (which might be "never") then it's also bound by the SM and CU - which precludes any form of deals outside the EU.

It's exactly what was predicted would happen if the UK voted to Leave before the vote. There are articles aplenty which noted that would be the biggest challenge. But as we know, Project Fear ...

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 16:18

{Parliament has to take control.
Or let my cat do it.}
With the slogan 'Iv'e more balls than the Tories'.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 16:19

How do cats manage that 'cute but strangely evil' look?

SusanWalker · 13/01/2019 16:20

Dd was distracting me through the Corbyn interview but I got the impression he was agreeing with brexiteers that the problems in the left behind post industrial towns were caused by the EU. That the EU had failed to fix these problems.

He also seemed to be relying on cakism if he was negotiating with the EU. But of course if Corbyn was leading the negotiations they would naturally agree to cake because he would ask them nicely unlike May.

How are we still at this point? There was someone on daily politics this week who claimed that if we were in a customs union, but not in the SM, we would have to have FOM. No wonder we are in the state we 're in. The people in charge don't even know the basics.

I too will likely vote lib dem at the next election. I'm in a three way marginal so my vote might count for something.