Westminstenders: What The Hell Happens Next?!

[RedToothBrush]

John Bercow has just spent over at an hour dealing with a Points of Order, in which he has argued that he is defending the soverignty of the House of Commons and that is his duty, not to simply to be a cheerleader for the executive.

Taking back control seems to have rather upset ERG Brexiteers.

As Jess Phillips astutely pointed out:
"People only care about procedures, and protecting and conserving the procedures, when they don't like the outcome of the thing that is about to happen and never when it is going in their favour."

And given what we have seen the Executive do over the last few months in terms of trying to use procedure for its own political gain, this is quite a fair point.

There are however certain constitutional questions this is all raising. And we have a very real constitutional crisis here.

Bercow has ruled that he CAN allow an amendment (because the previous vote had prevented only a motion and a debate) put forward by Grieve to go to a vote.

This amendment would - if it is passed by the house - require May to report to the house within 3 days if the WA fails to pass next week.

This would be a significant victory, if it passed because at present the position is where May can delay reporting back to the house until it start to get to the point where politically the opposition can't influence things, and a 'meaningful vote' will in practice be more like a gun to the head by the Executive, rather than the House of Commons acting in a sovereign manner and being free to make its own decisions rather than be forced into a corner by Parliamentary Procedure and the politicking of Parliamentary Procedure to undermine the independence of the HoC.

Allowing more time for the opposition to hold the government to account, does not necessarily change anything. It just means the executive can not just run down the clock in the way it perhaps has been intending.

The HoC could of course, vote against the amendment.

The WA is to come to the HoC next week.

And we have no idea what the hell is going to happen next.

ta1kin that's very logical and sensible. I had to Google Andrew Street Andy bunham annoys me in that way that's irrational. It's his face.

X post with bellini hahar thank you it is his eyes which irrationally annoy me!

Hazard
I'm a bit of a Local Government geek
the two Andy's have run rings round Whitehall on things like transport, housing, social care
they present cross party coherent briefing documents that represent a LOT of non London populations
and they COULD sell it
and would want to sell it

Key to any second referendum would be getting the youth vote out. No idea who would be best suited to lead a youth campaign, though!

Irene
My DD turned 18 three weeks before the last vote
my DS is now 18
they Youth Vote are overwhelmingly pro EU
they just want a voice
they do not need to be patronised by young figureheads

OH MY

HAVE YOU READ THE FRONT PAGES OF TOMORROW'S SUNDAY PRESS!???

If the answer is no, then lucky for you I've summed it all up in one handy recap for the new thread. Cos I love you all dearly.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3477681-Westminstenders-The-WA-Vote-ReDux?watched=1

Hold on tight. Next week is shaping up to make this week look tame and only mildly interesting.

DGRossetti

The closest thing I can think of to compel people to perform service that they might not otherwise do is some sort of military draft.

The U.S. military has a rather severe shortage of physicians primarily surgeons but also medical people of all kinds so if there was ever a really big war that the U.S. military had to fight a " Doctor Draft " would have to occur.

This occurred during WW2 and also during the Korean War and I also think the Vietnam War too.

Generally according to the surgeon whose book served as the basis for the movie " MASH " and also the TV series, doctors and surgeons were drafted for a period of six months ( this was considered to be about as long as a physician could be away from his practice in the states and not end up losing too many patients from his practice).

Physicians drafted were sent to a very short boot camp, they were not expected to engage in PT but rather learned about customs and courtesies ( basically when and how to salute ) and the different ranks of the U.S. military. They were then given the rank of Captain.

Those who refused to cooperate were made privates and made to perform duties anyway ( it was much better to be an officer, better food, housing, treatment, etc ).

I think but am not entirely sure that nurses were made lieutenants.

The current thinking among the selective service bigwigs is that not only medical personnel but with a bit of tweaking the military could draft plumbers, electricians, IT specialists, financial experts, etc. Whomever they thought they needed could be subject to the draft.

I read where the UK ended the draft eons ago but given the outflow of medical personnel out of the UK, a desperate government may resort to such a measure if / when events reach critical mass in too many hospitals.

The draftees involved would probably have to be the recently retired and people who worked in some medical capacity in the past but now have different jobs or occupations. There probably wouldn't be too much sympathy for any type of draft dodging since service would be in-country or kingdom as opposed to some foreign hell-hole.

Benefits might be priority in terms of petrol and food ( they would have to be able to get back and forth to work and it would be hard to concentrate on one's job if they were hungry all the time ). They would probably be stationed close to their homes or flats where possible to save on fuel and also to resolve family issues.

The same deal might apply to people involved in logistics, civil service, or any other field deemed important enough.

This all assumes that the powers-that-be have solid heads and solid thinking and given what has come out about Seaborne that really doesn't seem to be the case.

I know young people are overwhelmingly pro EU - that's why it's so important to get them actually into the polling booths. Just because your DC will vote as a matter of course doesn't mean other, less politically focused young people will. Getting youth turnout as high as possible is v important.

Andy Burnham and Andrew Street

You mean 'Andy I'm suddenly a rampant xenophobe Burnham' just in time for the GM mayor's election? That Andy Burnham?

He's more marmite than you suggest. And how many u turns on Brexit can you do before you lose all credibility?

I think Burnham more competent than most as a politician. Which makes how he became a wannabe kipper even worse. He wasn't convincing. It was cringe worthy and legitimised and represented a lot of the very big mistakes May made over Brexit, early on.

He was a polariser not a bridge builder.

I don't have much time for Andy Street. And neither should anyone who's conservative.

Last year he spammed us all with "Champion" - a puke-inducing puff piece about how wonderful he was and what a great Mayor he was.

Quite aside from the dreadful grammar, and appalling choice of font and colour, there was no version suitable for DW (who is practically blind). After being ignored by his office and the local conservatives, I contacted my local MP regarding my concerns about provision for blind and partially sighted constituents. After 3 months they replied they had been unable to contact the Mayors office on the matter. A few days later I had an email from the mayors campaign manager stating that "Champion" was not an official output of the Mayors office, and had be prepared, printed and distributed with private (presumably conservative party funds) and as such was not subject to the provisions of the DDA, or other accessibility legislation.

So a better moniker would be "Andy-I-don't-give-a-shit-about-the-less-able-Street".

The fact anyone could think of him in a positive light is a reflection on the state of UK politics.

Since his election, our local (Tory) councillors have pretty much given up doing anything for their constituents. Only a few days ago we had a "Happy New Year" card from them, grinning alongside the aforementioned Mr. Street. SOP for any issues now is "What did you expect ? It's a Labour council."

Fair enough
happy to stand corrected on the two Andy's by those who have dealings with them.

Who then ?

The closest thing I can think of to compel people to perform service that they might not otherwise do is some sort of military draft

Right now, if a male doesn't register for the draft in the US he will be excluded from federal financial aid for university. You can register right on the FAFSA.

If a CO, you can register afterwards as such.

Then there is the situation where prospective medical students of limited means (or those who do not want to start their careers half a million dollars in debt) can get their entire medical school loans paid if they serve in any branch of the armed forces as a general medical officer for the same number of years for which the debt is written off, and the armed forces will then send them to do their residency at a military medical center.

{Right now, if a male doesn't register for the draft in the US he will be excluded from federal financial aid for university.}
I will just pose the question here, not a discussion topic but if males have to register for draft duties to the country, what do females do for the country?

Knit socks.

LeClerc

There has been a lot of debate about registering women for the draft, but it is always voted down.

With more and more women becoming Doctors and Surgeons, requiring women to register for the draft might not be necessary in order to induct them.

Here are some excerpts from " Will There Be A Draft of Health Care Workers " on hasbrouck.org ;

" The military can't fight wars without doctors. During past wars there was a special "Doctor Draft" with a higher age limit and fewer deferments. By the early 1980's, the General Accounting Office predicted that there might be a "severe" shortage of trained medical personnel in the military in case of war. "Shortages of surgical personnel would be especially critical," the GAO reported. In 1987, Congress enacted Public Law 100-180 codified in 50 U.S.Code Appendix, Section 460(h) ordering the Selective Service System to prepare contingency plans for a compulsory "Health Care Personnel Delivery System" (HCPDS):

The Selective Service system shall be maintained as an active standby organization, with (1) a complete registration and classification structure capable of immediate operation in the event of a national emergency (including a structure for registration and classification of persons qualified for practice or employment in a health care occupation essential to the maintenance of the Armed Forces), and (2) personnel adequate to reinstitute immediately the full operation of the System, including military reservists who are trained to operate such System and who can be ordered to active duty for such purpose in the event of a national emergency.
Selective Service published its plans for the HCPDS as proposed regulations for public comment on August 15, 1989 (54 Federal Register 33644-33654), and has had them ready ever since. "The concept underwent a preliminary field exercise in Fiscal Year 1998, followed by a more extensive nationwide readiness exercise in Fiscal Year 1999. The 1999 exercise was the first time all of the programÃ?Â?s components were thoroughly evaluated. Based upon the 1999 exercise, the Agency determined that HCPDS is a sound, workable program." (Selective Service System Annual Report to Congress, Fiscal year 2000, p. 25).

As soon as Congress authorizes a draft of health care workers, Selective Service is ready to finalize the regulations, put them into effect, and begin sending out induction notices. "

" Proposals to reinstate the draft have been introduced in Congress every year since the last draft ended in 1973. And even those who claim there won't be a general draft admit that a medical draft is more likely, and will be "needed" by the military sooner, than a general draft of young men. According to one military doctor, writing in a 2004 medical journal article explaining Selective Service plans:

A physician draft is the most likely conscription into the military in the near future.... Currently, this ["special skills"] mission is only for health care personnel, but in the future it is foreseeable it may include linguists, environmental engineers, computer specialists, and other professions.
Also in 2004, a Selective Service spokesperson said, "Talking to the manpower folks at the Department of Defense and others, what came up was that ... they thought that if we have any kind of a draft, it will probably be a special skills draft."

As the wars and the casualties continue and escalate, a medical professionals' draft could start in a hurry. Draft registration probably won't be needed: In the past, the AMA arranged to provide licensing lists to Selective Service, and Congress will probably require other professional and licensing boards to do likewise.

The 2003 AMA House of Delegates passed a resolution, introduced by the AMA Medical Student Section, ordering a study and report on the implications of the Health Care Personnel Delivery System. That November 2004 report by the AMA Council on Medical Education recommended, "That our American Medical Association continue to monitor the Health Care Personnel Delivery System (HCPDS) and initiate communication with the Selective Service System and other relevant governmental bodies to address questions and concerns related to the implementation of the HCPDS."

Congress could approve a draft any day, and the Selective Service System says they are ready to begin a mass registration of health care workers within two weeks. Health care workers need to start thinking now about what they'll do if they are drafted -- and what they can do now to prevent the draft. "

" Congress could decide not to include women in the medical draft. But it will be hard to get enough nurses and other professionals in some of the desired specialities without drafting women. A health care workers' draft will most likely include women.

Congress could specify which occupations would be included. It will probably leave it up to the President, who will probably leave it up to the Pentagon. In 1986, when Congress last debated registration for a medical draft, the proposal allowed the President to designate for inclusion any "health-care occupations that are essential to the Armed Forces and in which personnel may not be available to meet the needs of the Armed Forces".

" Selective Service says it is prepared to draft people "professionally qualified" in 57 medical and related specialties, including physicians, dentists, psychologists, therapists, dietitians, technicians, nurses, veterinarians, pharmacists, opticians, "other medical care and treatment personnel", and "miscellaneous allied specialists" such as "medical equipment repair". This list of "job categories" is on the last page of the proposed regulations, but the President, Congress, and/or the Selective Service System could change it, or could decide to draft only certain of these categories:

Physicians
Aerospace Medicine
Thoracic Surgery
Orthopedic Surgery
Anesthesiology
General Surgery
Neurosurgery
Urology
Otolarnygology
Psychiatry
Allergy
Neurology
Dermatology
Radiology
Colon-Rectal Surgery
Pathology
Opthalmology
Internal Medicine
Emergency Medicine
Dentists
Oral Surgery
Prosthodontics
Periodontics
Endocrinology
General Dentistry
Miscellaneous Allied Specialists
Physiology
Entomology
Clinical Psychology
Medical Technology
Audiology/Speach Therapy
Environmental Health
Podiatry
Dietetics
Physical Therapy
Registered Nurses
Medical/Surgical Nursing
Surgical Nursing
Certified registered Nurse Anesthetist
Mental Health Nursing
Medical Care Technicians
Licensed Practical/Vocational Nursing and Other Medical Care and Treatment Personnel
Other Specialists/Technicians
Dental Laboratory
Medical Administration
Radiology
Respiratory Therapy
Medical Laboratory
Dental Assistance
Operating Room
Pharmacy
Dietetic
Medical Supply
Medical Equipment Repair
Psychiatric
Physical Therapy
Environmental Health
Orthopedic
Veterinary
Occupational Therapy
Optical
Opthalmology
Optometry
Past Congressional proposals would have authorized a draft of medical workers ages 20 through 54, but Selective Service says that "requirements would likely be met" by those 20 through 44. The youngest would be drafted first. Since few physicians are 20 years old, significantly older people could be drafted in at least some fields. "

I am not sure how the UK is set up to handle a national emergency of some kind. With the increasingly hostile work environment towards foreign medical personnel from the EU not to mention their apparently unsettled legal status that really puts the UK at a major disadvantage.

I would expect an overwhelming need for Dietitians followed by Veterinarians as opposed to a great need for surgeons.

If the UK had suffered some major natural disaster or an attack by a hostile power then the populace might be more willing to go along with some form of national conscription or service. Things being what they are though it would be hard to see nothing but mass resistance to any kind of compulsory service given the self-inflicted nature of the event.

Given what a PITA this, is, the absence of proctologists seems odd ?

Well, they can't quite cover everything.

On an off note, I noticed recently that you British have much more efficient words to describe an object or thing.

Here is a partial list;

US apartment = UK flat
US elevator = UK lift
US gasoline = UK petrol
US flashlight = UK torch

It takes us a bit longer and a bit more breath to describe the same thing.

Thinking about Brexit and a new kind of diet I am reminded of an episode of the original " Upstairs Downstairs " where Miss Bridges and Ruby during WW1 follow government direction to sacrifice for the troops at the front and serve what was called a " Patriotic Meal " to those downstairs.

Hudson the Butler who probably worked hard that day was ready for some good food but one bite of this patriotic meal and he was instantly displeased. He asked what was in it and Miss Bridges replied " bits of fatty bacon, left-over oatmeal, and semi-rotten vegetables they they were going to throw out but decided they could use. ". Miss Bridges and Ruby were quite pleased with their creation.

I am afraid that people in the UK will be eating something similar to patriotic meals for quite some time in a few months from now.

On an off note, I noticed recently that you British have much more efficient words to describe an object or thing.

I don't know, you left-pondians have a knack with words too I never tire of recommending notoneoffbritishisms.com/ for a rainy day.

I'm fascinated by the way US English has preserved some of our older terms ... fall for autumn, and the spelling of check for cheque. Also the reason you say sidewalk - which was (and is) English, but here in England we then created "pavement" to indicate a paved sidewalk. Presumably by then all US sidewalks were paved, making it a slight tautology.

I think there might be some distant folk memory in Brexiteers minds of WW2, when it was painfully obvious that the average American (certainly the GIs) was a lot richer than the British equivalent. It would explain the drooling fascination with UK-US trade deals.

DG

There is a common word used by people in the US and the UK and that word is f-u-c-k. I learned it came from the middle ages and originally meant " to thrust ". So a farmer back then might have said to his son, " Son, I need you to f-u-c-k all that hay into one big pile ".

Of course today it has a sexual connotation and is considered to be profane so people generally only use it when they are upset or angry.
Certainly in my lifetime the word " gay " has totally changed meaning from someone who is happy or energetic to someone who is attracted to their own sex.

Some words that people have shortened here in the US is " Vacay " for " Vacation " and " Veggies " for " Vegetables ". I hate these shortened variations.

It's not hard to see why trade deals between countries take so long, the words used and their meaning can vary from country to country and also one has to consider the context in which they are used.

There is a common word used by people in the US and the UK and that word is f-u-c-k. I learned it came from the middle ages and originally meant " to thrust ".

at your "toning it down" ... I know a lot of Brits can fall foul of (some) US sensibilities about cussin'

I'd suggest "the 'F' word" is much older than middle ages ... it has a certain earthy Saxon-ness about it, so possibly Dark Ages.

whatthefocus.wordpress.com/2011/09/05/the-word-fuck/

I particularly like the possible historical usage given

DGR

That was hilarious. An excerpt for those who can't bother to click;

Perhaps one of the most interesting and colorful words in the English language today is the word “fuck”. It is the one magical word which, just by its sound, can describe pain, pleasure, love, and hate.

In language, “fuck” falls into many grammatical categories.

• It can be used as a verb, both transitive (John fucked Mary) and intransitive (Mary was fucked by John).
• It can be an action verb (John really gives a fuck), a passive verb (Mary really doesn’t give a fuck), an adverb (Mary is fucking interested in John), or as a noun (Mary is a terrific fuck).
• It can also be used as an adjective (Mary is fucking beautiful) or an interjection (Fuck! I’m late for my date with Mary).
• It can even be used as a conjunction (Mary is easy, fuck she’s also stupid).

As you can see, there are very few words with the overall versatility of the word “fuck”. Aside from its sexual connotations, this incredible word can be used to describe many situations…

Greetings   “How the fuck are ya?”

Fraud       “I got fucked by the car dealer.”

Resignation “Oh, fuck it!”

Trouble     “I guess I’m fucked now.”

Aggression  “FUCK YOU!”

Disgust     “Fuck me.”

Confusion   “What the fuck…….?”

Difficulty  “I don’t understand this fucking business!”

Despair     “Fucked again…”

Pleasure    “I fucking couldn’t be happier.”

Displeasure “What the fuck is going on here?”

Lost        “Where the fuck are we.”

Disbelief   “UNFUCKING BELIEVABLE!”

Retaliation “Up your fucking ass!”

Denial      “I didn’t fucking do it.”

Perplexity  “I know fuck all about it.”

Apathy      “Who really gives a fuck, anyhow?”

Greetings   “How the fuck are ya?”

Suspicion   “Who the fuck are you?”

Panic       “Let’s get the fuck out of here.”

Directions  “Fuck off.”

Disbelief   “How the fuck did you do that?”

It can be used in an anatomical description- “He’s a fucking asshole.”

It can be used to tell time- “It’s five fucking thirty.”

It can be used in business- “How did I wind up with this fucking job?”

It can be political- “Fuck Dan Quayle!”

It has also been used by many notable people throughout history…

“What the fuck was that?”

– Mayor of Hiroshima

“Where the fuck is all this water coming from?”

– Captain of the Titanic

“That’s not a real fucking gun.”

– John Lennon

“Who’s gonna fucking find out?”

– Richard Nixon

“Heads are going to fucking roll.”

– Anne Boleyn

“Let the fucking woman drive.”

– Commander of Space Shuttle

“What fucking map?”

– “Challenger,” Mark Thatcher

“Any fucking idiot could understand that.”

– Albert Einstein

“It does so fucking look like her!”

– Picasso

“How the fuck did you work that out?”

– Pythagoras

“You want what on the fucking ceiling?”

– Michelangelo

“Fuck a duck.”

– Walt Disney

“Why?- Because its fucking there!”

– Edmund Hilary

“I don’t suppose its gonna fucking rain?”

– Joan of Arc

“Scattered fucking showers my ass.”

– Noah

“I need this parade like I need a fucking hole in my head.”

– John F. Kennedy

Okay, well a few of those were in bad taste but the rest were good.