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Brexit
Original poster

For anyone against having a second referendum...

183 replies

Elle087 · 19/12/2018 11:18

As we get closer to March 29th we are not only running out of time but running out of options.

Many leave voters will have you believe that all 17.4 million of them voted with a no deal in mind so having another referendum would be undemocratic.

But i ask anyone with this viewpoint to come on here and tell me how this can possibly be true when some of the most prominent leave campaigners were on record before the vote saying that no one was talking about leaving the single market and we could be like Norway?
How many of the 17.4 million people voted thinking this would be true?

With a no deal brexit this will be confirmed as complete lies so the people must be consulted again before we let this happen.

I'm 99% certain that if the only choices were remain or no deal then remain would win by quite a margin, maybe 60/40.

OP posts:
Mistigri · 20/12/2018 15:42

Using 'democracy' to subvert democracy ha ha. It's all semantics really. Either a referendum is democratic, and therefore you don't need two of them. Or it isn't, and therefore you don't need two of them. Just ignore it!

Do you think the same thing about elections?

I don't think you really have any interest in democracy.

Slightlycoddled · 20/12/2018 16:04

NI doesn't assess rights but an ID card does. If there had been an ID system in place at the beginning, that would have identified right to remain (or return in case of people not related to Windrush situation). An ID irrespective of NI would give you a right to remain.

But keep going Badlydrawnperson I'm not engaging any longer Grin

jm90914 · 20/12/2018 16:17

@mistigri

But an election isn’t a one and done event is it?

You have one, assess what happens in the proceeding period of time, and then have another one.

That example doesn’t support your argument at all. It, in fact, supports the side of the argument that you disagree with...

This anti-democratic argument for not having a referendum just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Peregrina · 20/12/2018 18:43

I think we should just do what Switzerland did. They had a referendum on ending FOM and had a narrow win (like us) for ending FOM from the EU+. The govenment said, ok, we'll study this and implement the vote. The government then went away, did impact studies, came back and just said we're not doing it, it'll be too damaging to the economy.

Prominent Leavers on these threads were beside themselves with excitement over this - the EU will blink first, they said. The EU didn't blink and the Swiss obviously have a more sensible Government than the UK does.

KennDodd · 20/12/2018 18:51

With regard to the 2016 referendum, had it been binding, like a parliamentary election, it would have been declared void because of the illegality around the Leave campaign and would have had to be run again anyway. Perhaps posters should think about that when they say having another referendum would be undemocratic.

badlydrawnperson · 20/12/2018 19:00

NI doesn't assess rights but an ID card does

So you wouldn't just be seeing it as a piece of plastic with your name on it? It would be defacto proof of your immigration status as well? Given the range of immigration statuses we have and the fact that they can change this would require a lot of admin to keep up to date. Are you planning to print immigration status on the card or have it on a database?

You don't seem to have thought it through and you keep saying you have to go rather than discuss it - yet I have apparently been given all the answers and am 12. OK then.

icannotremember · 20/12/2018 19:14

I was a no2id supporter the last time ID cards and the NIR were proposed- there is a lot of information on why some people have concerns on their website, if anyone is interested: www.no2id.net/further-reading/

KateAdiesEarrings · 20/12/2018 19:28

Can we have a third referendum? And a fourth? It's like the lightbulb joke - how many referendums does it take to get the result you want? Hmm

Of course if people were genuinely concerned about how we run referendums, there'd be campaigns on making the process more robust and replicating the systems used in countries that regularly hold them. But the government doesn't seem to want a transparent and robust process that produces clear white papers and cross-party consensus on the facts and the figures before any vote is held. Ask yourself why they'd prefer a process shrouded in misinformation and lack of clarity? Because it was the exact same for the Scottish referendum (which I'm assuming we're also re-running because the No side lied about membership of the EU).

badlydrawnperson · 20/12/2018 19:30

@icannot - I am a continuing member and financial supporter of no2id - one of the finest campaigns I've ever been involved in, ran rings round the Civil Service wonks who have all popped up since - Meg Hillier now destroying HMRC after ID cards to name just one.

1tisILeClerc · 20/12/2018 19:33

Since anyone with a 'smartphone' is being tracked all the time the phone is on, to within a few metres and any driver has a license and use of bank cards places you in time and space, combined with the UK being almost the most watched on CCTV, having a card that would be useful seems a reasonable idea.
If you want to be 'invisible' you have to abandon all technology and go somewhere remote, or be a rough sleeper in Westminster.

badlydrawnperson · 20/12/2018 19:47

f you want to be 'invisible' ... A pointless straw man argument.

What would an ID card do that I can't do now? and how much will it cost?

icannotremember · 20/12/2018 19:53

I don't think the argument is that people want to be invisible!

badlydrawnperson · 20/12/2018 20:04

I don't think the argument is that people want to be invisible!

Correct that was just a daft straw man argument.

Mistigri · 20/12/2018 20:10

But an election isn’t a one and done event is it?

Neither's a referendum. Remind me how many referendums we've already had about Europe? And I'd love to hear your argument for never having another Scottish independence referendum, cos, y'know, "the people have spoken".

Your argument is terrible. You need a new one.

frumpety · 20/12/2018 21:05

Leavers how do you feel about rather rotund gentleman, wearing a combination of leisure wear and hi-vis accessories ( with a rather ironic nod to European movements) harassing a middle aged woman on her way to work ? Granted Anna Soubry wore that expression that suggested that she had been in close confines with far scarier and much nastier people in her career, but still not the finest hour for those who allegedly support democracy and those democratically voted for ?

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 20/12/2018 21:52

frumpety I don’t condone it - just as I don’t condone Jacob RM being attacked outside his home with his young children.

1tisILeClerc · 20/12/2018 22:25

{wearing a combination of leisure wear and hi-vis accessories ( with a rather ironic nod to European movements)}
Unless he was French and protesting against fuel prices in France he was an imposter.

1tisILeClerc · 20/12/2018 22:25

Bloody Brits stealing all the European stuff!

jm90914 · 21/12/2018 07:35

@Mistigri

I think I misunderstood.

I thought that you were arguing that a second referendum would be anti-democratic. I was disagreeing with that notion; of course a further referendum isn’t anti-democratic.

Looking back it seems you were just quoting someone else.

Crossed wires.

Mistigri · 21/12/2018 07:48

@jm90914 sorry if wires got crossed Confused, my lack of patience with the ludicrous and totalitarian attitude that "the people have spoken" is showing.

Plenty of good arguments to be made against a second referendum but the argument that "voting more often is undemocratic" isn't one of them.

jm90914 · 21/12/2018 08:13

@mistigri

Not at all, it was my fault.

Yes, it’s frustrating isn’t it. Goebbels must be proud.

Peregrina · 21/12/2018 11:03

As far as Referendums go, IMO we either accept that we run them and put proper rules in place, as do Ireland and Switzerland, or else we adopt the German position and ban them knowing how easily they can be manipulated. What we don't need is the current half-arsed system where the rules are made up each time.

badlydrawnperson · 21/12/2018 12:28

@peregrina we are overdue electoral and constitutional reform in a number of areas - it's unfortunate we're only recognising this as a result of how voting in one referendum went.

placemats · 21/12/2018 16:52

Let's do the honourable thing and get on with what we voted to get on with

The problem with this is that those who voted to leave are NOT getting on with it and it's left to those who voted remain to clear up the mess. I don't accept this in my work place and I certainly don't accept it in this instance. I have full praise for May, though I will never vote Tory. She did get on with the thankless task. It has left her out on a limb.

Others should be ashamed, including the poster highlighted in this post.

Satsumaeater · 21/12/2018 17:20

Let's do the honourable thing and get on with what we voted to get on with

How is destroying many peoples' lives (and probably the UK as well) an honourable thing to do?

People voted to leave the EU. I don't think the majority voted to leave in the most destructive way possible. In fact I know they didn't because people usually have a healthy dose of self-interest.

That said, I don't want another referendum. MPs voted to trigger the Art 50 notification, they can vote to untrigger it again. Or support the withdrawal deal. But no deal is not an option.

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