For anyone against having a second referendum...

[Elle087]

As we get closer to March 29th we are not only running out of time but running out of options.

Many leave voters will have you believe that all 17.4 million of them voted with a no deal in mind so having another referendum would be undemocratic.

But i ask anyone with this viewpoint to come on here and tell me how this can possibly be true when some of the most prominent leave campaigners were on record before the vote saying that no one was talking about leaving the single market and we could be like Norway?
How many of the 17.4 million people voted thinking this would be true?

With a no deal brexit this will be confirmed as complete lies so the people must be consulted again before we let this happen.

I'm 99% certain that if the only choices were remain or no deal then remain would win by quite a margin, maybe 60/40.

Fhs most countries in Europe manage to operate an ID card system successfully. I live in a zone one European country and a policeman came to my door to check I was who I said I was prior to it being issued, and that my address was genuine.
Fair enough. Since that time I use it maybe a dozen times a year, if that, for transactions at the bank, collecting parcels at the post office, to identify myself at the recycling centre, and for voting in local elections. It's no big deal at all.

And the savings garnered by the police and border control authorities not having to spend hours trying to work out who the blazes someone is will more than pay for the system. Not being in possession of an ID card is an identifying factor too as to be legally resident, every citizen has to have one. Currently I believe the Home Office has a very sketchy idea of how many people actually live in the UK, and whether they are legally resident or not. An ID card system is simple common sense.

I never quite understand the logic of people who complain about unfettered immigration on the one hand, and who say an id card is a breach of civil liberties on the other?

I really don’t understand how an ID will solve the British publics disgruntlement with the levels of immigration - someone enlighten me

Remain should be included on any referendum because so many people were denied the chance to vote in the first referendum.

Other countries have managed to hold a 2nd referendum to clarify the People's position without all this angst (e.g. Denmark, Ireland).

Never offer anything you're not prepared to follow through. That removes "No Deal" from the referendum as the results would be too catastrophic.
Therefore the choice is TM's Deal or Remain.

In itself it doesn't but as part of a system where government agencies know pretty much where people reside it allows better planning for schools, hospitals etc and 'removal' or at least regularisation of those who should not be in the UK. All governments have databases of their citizens and in the UK you have for example driving licenses, NI number, Tax number NHS number etc. Pulling the info onto one card or in the EU, an ID and a driving license. makes considerable sense.

No deal is still proposed by many. Some, as they see possible huge financial gains (betting on disaster), but the rank and file who are mistakenly thinking that a no deal means that nothing will happen except fewer immigrants from the EU (now denied) and blue passports.
No deal actually means a lot of things that the UK takes for granted will disappear and may or may not be replaced eventually.

so many people were denied the chance to vote in the first referendum stupidest comment ever, we would have to hold one every single year by that logic

1tisILeClerc but it won’t help anything- people are frustrated that we have an open door immigration policy with the EU (eastern block)- with regards to illegals the cards are pointless as we have a removal bottle neck

And the savings garnered by the police and border control authorities not having to spend hours trying to work out who the blazes someone is will more than pay for the system.

Do you have any actual evidence of UK authorities incurring these costs and delays or have you just made it up?

{but it won’t help anything- people are frustrated that we have an open door immigration policy with the EU (eastern block)- with regards to illegals the cards are pointless as we have a removal bottle neck}
Discuss this with a number of home secretaries who couldn't be arsed to do their job intelligently and use controls we always had.
T May was one of them, although she has now 'upped the game' with her 'hostile environment' regime and whipped the country up to a nasty racist frame of mind. People won't want to come so in a sense job done. Brits can pick their own fruit and veg for less than minimum wage.

I never quite understand the logic of people who complain about unfettered immigration on the one hand, and who say an id card is a breach of civil liberties on the other?

Making me carry an ID card is a cost and a burden to solve a problem I don't have. Concentrate the effort on offenders.

Immigration is a different argument especially as we never joined Schengen - anyone here should have been subject to a passport check at least (unless they used the Irish loophole).

If you are stopped by police for some reason, having ID on you shows who you are and where you live, a process taking minutes. If the police have to 'escort' you to somewhere to prove who you are it takes ages and uses a lot of time when they could be doing something else, possibly more important.

Badlydrawnperson the costs I believe were worked out during a home office consultation exercise in the early 2000s under David Blunkett following the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

ID cards are to be carried by EU citizens. They are usually 'credit card' size and I think legally you should have it with you at all times which since it would fit in your purse/wallet is not normally a problem.

Actually, as an EU citizen I have to be able to prove my identity. It's perfectly fine to do this passport but the ID card is a lot cheaper.

{Making me carry an ID card is a cost and a burden to solve a problem I don't have. Concentrate the effort on offenders. }
I presume you are being deliberately obtuse. If you can't prove easily and quickly who you are how are authorities supposed to find out whether you are an offender or not?
Although UK law has it that you are innocent until proven guilty, there is a state of limbo between actually being either innocent or guilty, during which time the authorities need to establish facts. An ID card is a quicker route to establishing facts.

If you are stopped by police for some reason, having ID on you shows who you are and where you live, a process taking minutes. If the police have to 'escort' you to somewhere to prove who you are it takes ages and uses a lot of time when they could be doing something else, possibly more important.
Where are your statistics showing how much we would save by setting up an ID scheme and forcing everyone to keep their data up to data at all times vs the amount of times the scenario you describe ACTUALLY HAPPENS ? At the moment this is just "man in the pub" talk isn't it?

Yes a passport is another way of showing identity but is larger to carry and gets a bit 'dog eared' by carrying it continually, even my nice burgundy one.

Do I understand correctly that you don't have to carry any ID in the UK?

I presume you are being deliberately obtuse. If you can't prove easily and quickly who you are how are authorities supposed to find out whether you are an offender or not?

Well they can start by asking me, and I'll tell them. If you make me carry a card as "proof" you are calling everyone a liar. I don't need to card to tell the Police who I am - I can just tell them if they ask me, it's really simple and inexpensive.

Why is carrying an ID card a burden? I have one and I assure you it isn't!

Surely any costs involved are worth it in order to counter illegal immigration, illegal working, identity fraud and terrorism?

badlydrawnperson
Personally I don't give a damn what you think. It works well enough in Europe where I intend to stay, it is the UK having the serious problems, which are self inflicted.

Do I understand correctly that you don't have to carry any ID in the UK?
Yes, we abolished old-fashioned "papers please" demands of that kind following a court case in 1953 when a citizen successfully challenged the rights of Police to keep demanding his ID as a tactic of harassment.

It isn't needed.

would save by setting up an ID scheme and forcing everyone to keep their data up to data at all times vs the amount of times the scenario you describe ACTUALLY HAPPENS ? A

I buy a new ID card once every ten years. Via my number (don't know the correct term for the UK) they can find out where I live in the computer sysrwms if necessary. I certainly don't update the card or it's information. It just says who I am, that doesn't change.

Personally I don't give a damn what you think

So when challenged on the facts, you have no answer.

{Well they can start by asking me, and I'll tell them. If you make me carry a card as "proof" you are calling everyone a liar. I don't need to card to tell the Police who I am - I can just tell them if they ask me, it's really simple and inexpensive.}
So when you have been caught shoplifting, or even just suspected of it how are the police going to know if you are who you say you are?
Bank cards have no photo or address, a driving license has photo and address but not other information and although it SHOULD be updated it may not be.

Do I understand correctly that you don't have to carry any ID in the UK?
Yes, we abolished old-fashioned "papers please" demands of that kind following a court case in 1953 when a citizen successfully challenged the rights of Police to keep demanding his ID as a tactic of harassment.

Well what at least answers my question (not asked on MN though) why so many illegal immigrants want to go to the UK. Over here if they get caught they enter a sort of prison to investigate if they need to be sent back.