For anyone against having a second referendum...

[Elle087]

As we get closer to March 29th we are not only running out of time but running out of options.

Many leave voters will have you believe that all 17.4 million of them voted with a no deal in mind so having another referendum would be undemocratic.

But i ask anyone with this viewpoint to come on here and tell me how this can possibly be true when some of the most prominent leave campaigners were on record before the vote saying that no one was talking about leaving the single market and we could be like Norway?
How many of the 17.4 million people voted thinking this would be true?

With a no deal brexit this will be confirmed as complete lies so the people must be consulted again before we let this happen.

I'm 99% certain that if the only choices were remain or no deal then remain would win by quite a margin, maybe 60/40.

ore remainders too big n the younger people if they could be bothered to register and then actually vote

They did register and vote 64% turnout

The results found that 64% of those young people who were registered did vote, rising to 65% among 25-to-39-year-olds and 66% among those aged between 40 and 54. It increased to 74% among the 55-to-64 age group and 90% for those aged 65 and over. It is thought that more than 70% of young voters chose to remain in the EU

Using 'democracy' to subvert democracy ha ha. It's all semantics really. Either a referendum is democratic, and therefore you don't need two of them. Or it isn't, and therefore you don't need two of them. Just ignore it!

Or will the second referendum be more of an athenian democracy. No old people, no women, no poor people from the North East, Humberside or Manchester. Only students, wealthy men and self-proclaimed champagne socialists?

Oh and students too. Mustn't forget that hotbed of rationalism and life experience when casting for the second time.

Badlydrawnperson I pointed you in the direction of the cost assessment carried out under David Blunket. You chose to ignore that. Go and do your own research if you are really interested. I could equally ask you if you have any concrete evidence to the contrary?

MissesBiggens I think ID cards help considerably wrt problem of illegal immigration simply because people without one need to justify their presence in the country to the authorities. And as such they are more easily identifiable by the police.

I am living in a country where ID cards are standard the system works in a very practical and efficient manner. But as you say, this subject is a huge derail, so I shall stop banging on about it now.

@Slightlydcoddled

I was wondering if you had any up-to date data - the failed Blunket fiasco was a long time ago now

Blunket refused to publish the full costs for reasons of "commercial confidentiality"

The LSE did some contemporaneous independent research proving that the scheme wouldn't be justifiable on cost grounds and raised other serious concerns. You can read it here if you like -

www.lse.ac.uk/management/research/identityproject/identityreport.pdf

These threads make me really sad.

Regardless of the outcome of the "vote" in 2016 we should all be getting on the case of the shower of shit that is a government. I have no faith left in a single one of them, if I ever had any in the first place.

I voted Remain though I am not impervious to seeing the allure of certain aspects of being out of the EU. Overall I believed it was in the interests of future generations to remain and thus cast my recommendation accordingly.
When the decision to Leave was announced, I was sort of amused really because it seems to me that a lot of people were led up,the garden path as has now been shown to be the case., and because nobody had one iota of skill or competence during embryonic negotiations sorry humiliation at Strasbourg. I always harboured a hope that we'd turn round and go no it's never going to happen let's stop this.

I would be genuinely interested to know hw many would still vote to leave seeing the chaos over the Irish, Border, this contingency planning (though I believe it to be bullying tactics from May to get her piece of crud through Parliament) sorry panicking, and the very possible risks to the economy, the projected spending which thought welcome was still woefully inadequate domestic infrastructural problems. Is this what they voted for?

And ultimately Brexit has meant the political workforce have been allowed to or have had to take their eye off the ball and not deal with the issues that will make the negative impact of Brexit or no deal even greater

I am exhausted with it all. And utterly loathe the behaviour of politicians more than I ever have in my entire life. Bar perhaps Iraq.

Well it's certainly blown the idea of the UK government having good, pragmatic negotiators out of the water.

I would love another vote.

I do still hate this ' all old people voted leave and the young didn't' I know of a few in the 24 to 35 age bracket who voted leave and a 94 year old ( my dad) who voted remain!

Whatever, we need to do another one.
I know the arguments against this by the way!

Am I the only one that remembers the uproar about 'civil liberties' under the Labour government when they tried to steamroller us into having them with the Identity Cards Act, which was repealed within the first few months of a Tory government.

As I recall, Labour had some expensive and overly complex system. Now a simple system as applying for a bus pass is, (if you are pensionable age) would be perfectly do-able. You need something to prove your age e.g. birth certificate and something to prove your address and provide a photo. Once done though, that's it.

Whereas now, if you don't possess a passport or driving licence, you keep having to produce these documents, to open bank accounts, seeing a solicitor, various other things. This wasn't the case 65 years ago; now it is and I think people would be more accepting.

My now late parents would have struggled to provide photo ID past the age of seventy - they stopped travelling, so their passports were allowed to expire. They stopped driving because they ceased to be safe, so stopped renewing their driving licences. I imagine they might have applied for a bus pass solely as an identity document and hope that it would have been accepted by most authorities. Not sure though.

Well it's certainly blown the idea of the UK government having good, pragmatic negotiators out of the water.
I'm pretty sure we didn't prove either that we did or that we didn't. All we proved is that if we cannot agree what we want, our negotiators have nothing to work with and the opposing negotiators have a very easy ride. I think throughout this the EU have had to do very little indeed in order to have the upper hand.

The point that people like missesbiggens don't seem to understand (or wilfully misunderstand) is that this wouldn't be a re-run of the 2016 referendum. It would be a different referendum which would seek voters' opinions on what their preference is after the terms of any deal are known.
People also bang on about Ireland voting twice 'until they got the right answer' without bothering to research into why the results of the referendum there was different from the first time (interim economic downturn/further guarantees offered relating to concerns about sovereignty etc).
It is astonishing how so many people cling onto misinformation because it confirms their bias.

I think if all the pensioners in nursing/care homes had the vote there would be more remainders.

I visit all businesses for work, all kinds of businesses. I visited a care home just after the referendum and met with the manager, she told me that they'd made voting day a bit of a trip out and the residents all went down together. They all (she said all) voted Leave while complaining about all the immigrants. Half her staff where from eastern Europe and they had to push these residents in their wheelchairs to vote while listening to these complaints. She said she felt so bad for the staff and how this must have made them feel.

Badlydrawnperson

I was wondering if you had any up-to date data
That LSE report is from 2005. The immigration situation has changed considerably since then, so I could ask the same thing of you!

The UK will have left the EU in just under a year and we will be responsible for our national borders by the end of 2020. I would suggest that the time is ripe for a new system of tracking given that we will presumably have a new immigration policy.

I am sure those people affected by the Windrush scandal wish this had been put in place earlier however.

I would love the idea of a second ref if only it would solve any of the problems we have. OK we are better informed but I still think not adequately informed, there is all sorts of misinformation still out there and many things relating to the leave options are just unknowable. It's a much more complex question now and there was concern last time that it was already too complex for the average person. Then if it were 52/48 for Remain, how is that a clearer outcome? Then there's the question of the question itself, I've seen about 15 iterations of how it could be articulated but there are flaws in each.
If the polls indicated a strong preference for Remain/revoke Article 50, yes absolutely it would be the best thing. I feel as if the failure to convince Leavers and shift the polls much in the interim rests on all our shoulders.
Honestly I wish Parliament/Cabinet would just do what is best for the country and have the guts to make the decision themselves. Triggering Article 50 when she did, with the support of parliament, with no preparation, just beggars belief.

I think we should just do what Switzerland did. They had a referendum on ending FOM and had a narrow win (like us) for ending FOM from the EU+. The govenment said, ok, we'll study this and implement the vote. The government then went away, did impact studies, came back and just said we're not doing it, it'll be too damaging to the economy. They didn't even have the added complications we have that implementing this means breaking a peace treaty.

I don't think (?) they have tabloid press in Switzerland though so maybe the information they get is a bit better, also, I don't think Putin was interested in the outcome.

lot of people were led up,the garden path as has now been shown to be the case

Aaron Banks said exactly that when interviewed by MPs. He said he took the voters hands and led them up the garden path. He also said that Remains big mistake was to focus of facts, it's feelings that matter and so that's what they went for. The contemp he treated the public with was shocking. Clip below.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44446632

If there were to be a second ref, the most effective argument for staying would be the dutch mp with the Love Actually boards (someone posted the youtube link on a previous thread) - appealing to feelings as Kenn Dodd says above. Obviously not to the exclusion of fact, but there would have to be some emotion attached.
And I'm quite sad that an outcome that I believe to be "right" can only be won using presentation that pulls the heart strings.

That LSE report is from 2005. The immigration situation has changed considerably since then, so I could ask the same thing of you!
But I am not advocating introducing an ID card scheme.
You want it, you prove the benefits.

I am sure those people affected by the Windrush scandal wish this had been put in place earlier however.
I doubt it - they were done over by crappy administration. Many of these people have been working, paying taxes etc - in all sorts of public systems for years, why would having an ID card have made any difference? Clue: It wouldn't.

ID cards keep being trotted out as a "solution" to all sorts of problems that they wouldn't actually solve.

@KennDodd

Sadly, I don’t think you’ll find many who’ll read that and be willing to admit that they’ve had the wool pulled over their eyes by some extremely odious rich white men.

{The UK will have left the EU in just under a year and we will be responsible for our national borders by the end of 2020.}

Or as some would have it, 99 days, a bit over 3 months.

BREXIT
{You want it, you prove the benefits.}

Badlydrawnperson I genuinely don't have time to engage further beyond this post because I have to go out but the Windrush folk would have been able to prove their identity (many couldn't) and would have had a documented proven record of their residence in this country had a proper ID system been in place.

@slightly
How would an ID card trump years and years of NI records? This is ridiculous - their identity was never in doubt - the question was over our government not keeping any proper records of their immigration status - how would a card with your name on it help that?