For anyone against having a second referendum...

[Elle087]

As we get closer to March 29th we are not only running out of time but running out of options.

Many leave voters will have you believe that all 17.4 million of them voted with a no deal in mind so having another referendum would be undemocratic.

But i ask anyone with this viewpoint to come on here and tell me how this can possibly be true when some of the most prominent leave campaigners were on record before the vote saying that no one was talking about leaving the single market and we could be like Norway?
How many of the 17.4 million people voted thinking this would be true?

With a no deal brexit this will be confirmed as complete lies so the people must be consulted again before we let this happen.

I'm 99% certain that if the only choices were remain or no deal then remain would win by quite a margin, maybe 60/40.

Leaving the EU is completely the solution to not wanting to be in it in the first place.

That Leave campaign website is just appalling. I can't believe that there is absolutely no penalty for telling outrageous lies and overspending. To those who shrug and say "both sides did it". They really did not. May says a 2nd referendum will lead to voters losing faith in the electoral system. What about the voters who have already lost faith due to the appalling way the referendum was held and the complete lack of integrity shown by politicians since then?

{and the process was unknowable, since we can't speak for the other side of the negotiating table.}
Of course the process of leaving and the LIKELY terms were known. It's called the 'small print' and if Cameron and others had bothered to read the 'rules' that previous UK politicians and lawyers had written ALL of this mess could have been avoided.
It would probably have taken around 5 to 10 years of lawyers sifting through all the rules and working out ways to leave without causing significant problems, but no, the idiots in government ploughed ahead and invoked A50 with no real preparation. All of the details that needed discussing and preparation are on the EU website or available through diplomatic channels but the UK couldn't be arsed. Worse, it is happy to let 'untruths' go unchallenged.
The UK does not need a second referendum, it needs some grown ups to actually do their jobs but it seems they are having a shouting match in the HoC at the moment.

It's not a second referendum that they are asking for. It's a third referendum. The first referendum voted us into the EU and the second voted us out.

The EU was only supposed to be about free trade in Europe.

{Leaving the EU is completely the solution to not wanting to be in it in the first place.}
As the 'sick man of Europe' in the '70's, the UK was very happy to join up.

{The EU was only supposed to be about free trade in Europe.}
Not according to Ted Heath (?) the Prime Minister at the time.

The EU is only supposed to be about free trade in Europe

It largely is. And with free tade, comes free movement of people obviously. And the exchange of scientific knowledge and know-how. And educational programmes for the young. And issues of security and production and worker standards and transport. And environmental issues. Trade encompasses a wide range of naturally aligned issues.

Indeed, I can't argue with you on what you say, LeClerc. People voted to stay in the 70's and as far as I can see the info at the time was factual. But from Maastricht Treaty onwards the increasing political integration, has been uncomfortable for many UK people and Lisbon Treaty a step too far.

I think a second referendum would be okay, if it was a vote on the kind of Brexit

Not putting remain back in the table, vote leave already won

I’m a firm Remainer but I think a second referendum would cause dangerous levels of civil unrest as well as going completely against our democratic principles as a nation.

I’ve resigned myself to a hard Brexit and would prefer political debate and action would be focussed on preparing the country for a hard Brexit and safeguarding our citizens (including resident EU nationals and their children) as much as possible. I want details of what is going to happen re food, medication and other vital services and supplies as well as financial plans re inflation, interest rates, mortgages etc.

To-ing and fro-ing about a second referendum is not going to help us survive next Spring. I haven’t met a leave voter who has changed their mind. What if we vote leave as a nation again and have even less time to prepare for a hard Brexit?

Wait... Is it just me who remembers that the government sent a leaflet to ALL homes in the UK, telling us that 'Voting to leave the EU would create years of uncertainty and potential economic disruption...'? There was plenty of doom projected in there including it taking over 10 years to negotiate with the EU and other countries etc. Despite this, majority of voters voted to leave the EU.

Let's assume Remain won the vote and Leave demanded a second referendum, wouldn't we tell them 'get lost, we already had a referendum'??

I am against a second referendum because we have already voted to leave. If there is a second referendum, remaining cannot be an option - that was already voted against.

All our energy should now be focused on ensuring the government hammers out a deal that is good for the UK. Can you imagine how far we would have gone if the whole of parliament came together to hammer out a good deal on leaving? A strong voice singing one tune to the EU?

No, half of us have nailed ourselves down, fighting for a second referendum.

We need to move on - we only have a few months left to sort things out.

@Jaffacakebeast I think a second referendum would be okay, if it was a vote on the kind of Brexit

Exactly. I'll agree to a second referendum on the kind of Brexit with no 'remain' on the ballot.

I value my Freedom of Movement and would like my kids to have Freedom of Movement too, so would like a EEA style 'leave' on the referendum, if we're not allowed to have remain on the ballot paper.

I am against a second referendum because we have already voted to leave. If there is a second referendum, remaining cannot be an option - that was already voted against

Speaking on behalf of my partner....Remain can be an option because i was promised we wouldn't have to leave the single market and now i know that was a lie i want to change my vote to remain.

You can't just outright lie to people and then say we've already voted on that so tough!

Exactly. I'll agree to a second referendum on the kind of Brexit with no 'remain' on the ballot.

Which denies people the democracy that you say you value so much!

Problem is you give another referendum and say remain won, what happens then, does everyone think leavers will just disappear?
Also what remain are you voting for? Cameron's new deal? Do you want to join the Euro, Schengen...what about when Macedonia, Albania join freedom of movement, did remainers vote for that? or will we forever have a yearly referendum based on the inevitable evolution of the EU project.

I would prefer there to be no second referendum at all, as the inability of the electorate to make make an intelligent and informed decision on such a complex issue has already been demonstrated.
I would like our parliamentary representatives to acknowledge that Brexit will be extremely damaging and take the most damaging - 'no deal' - off the table entirely. I would like them to act like grown ups and stop their bickering and act in the best interests of the country. If that means going against 'the will of the people', they have a responsibility to do just that.

Exactly what I've been thinking Onlyfools.With an ever evolving EU with far larger membership it bears little resemblance to when we joined in the 70s and yet having any doubts about it or voting to Leave is treachery.
I don't want a second referendum,but if there is one I will very carefully consider again my vote depending on the ballot paper.,and the options.I will vote .But I will also compare it to the EU making Ireland and Denmark vote again to get the 'right 'result' we the Lisbon Treaty.
I met a friend recently who blames Brexit for absolutely everything at the moment eg the car industry .How about the emisions scandal for having a helping hand in that.Withdrawal of our troops from Germany.Well that was announced in 2010 well before the referendum and was going to be complete withdrawal but now scaled back after the Salisbury poisoning.The state of the high street.Ours has been in decline for years,and I personally am spending less and shopping locally because I'm sick of consumerism and buying stuff I don't really need.Her list goes on and on.What I'd like her to do is predict with the same absolute certainty that everything will be shit if we leave that everything will be just great if we cancel the whole Brexit thing.Personally I still think 28 countries is far too big.
Be careful what you wish for.A PP said she had yet to meet a Leave voter who would vote differently. Of course there will be.But I also know the reverse.

There was plenty of doom projected in there including it taking over 10 years to negotiate with the EU and other countries etc. Despite this, majority of voters voted to leave the EU.
Rees-Mogg says it will be 50 years before we know what the benefits are. Many people could stomach ten years of austerity, but two generations worth? I know I will be long dead by then, and there is a good chance that he will be too or so far into his dotage that politics and making money won't concern him much.

Let's assume Remain won the vote and Leave demanded a second referendum, wouldn't we tell them 'get lost, we already had a referendum'??
Would Farage have shut up? Isn't it funny that now he's won, he's done a runner? How is he, or Rees Mogg or all the others getting behind Theresa May's deal? Why is it only Remainers who have to?

I don’t like the idea of a second referendum as I think it will get a lot of people’s backs up.
However I think it is inevitable now.
If we have a proper ID card system like the rest of Europe. And implemented some minor immigration restrictions I think it might keep some leavers and remainers happy.
I’d prefer to remain but I see that we weren’t ever really a proper member of the club and we caused them a fair amount of aggro for decades.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Just use the word "lie" (as in fibbing) and nothing more can be said because it's all lies, dammit, and anything anyone says from any perspective (except the perspective of links, quotes, predictions and statistics - which never ever tell fibs and is shiny bright with goodness).

No, I don't think there should be a 2nd Ref - and definately not one that necessitates an option a), b), c) ad infinitem.

Really, at this current time, we should just be spending time negotiating on the many fronts that the UK's departure from the EU necessitates.

Much as I like to temper my inate optism for most things in life with a 'worst case scenario' - I have found that when things get really tough having a 'cool head' in these situations doesn't just get oneself through, but helps others balance their anxieties enough to get themselves through too.

If you were physically by my side OP I would be doing my best to help you through these 'difficult' times - but I'm not.

No doubt the Screamers will show up soon to tell you and I that I'm an idiot, etc and that you should be as worried and anxious as you possibly can.

I'm 99% certain that if the only choices were remain or no deal then remain would win by quite a margin, maybe 60/40.

I wish you were right on that, but the polling (yes, imperfect, but the only data we have) says not.

YouGov polled over 20,000 people on various remain/deal/no deal outcomes and while remain does win versus a no deal Brexit, it wasn’t by a wide margin at all - 52% remain, 48% no deal.

We need to take stock, and learn the lessons of 2016: a close referendum result is utterly destabilising. Another one won’t solve anything long term.

In a Mays deal vs no deal scenario, Mays deal wins very comfortably: 65% for Mays deal, 35% for no deal.

I’d love to remain, but I’m coming to think that it’s not a feasible outcome. Leaving with May’s deal and going for an ambitious EU trade deal seems like the least disruptive outcome that we can hope for.

Im convinced that support for no deal isn’t significant enough for it be seriously considered, though.

Remain voters can’t be excluded from the discussion, and they all prefer a deal vs no deal. When added in with the 40% of leave voters who prefer a soft Brexit (again polling, not perfect, but the only data available), the support for no deal is not significant enough.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=brexit_deal_model

If we have a proper ID card system like the rest of Europe. And implemented some minor immigration restrictions I think it might keep some leavers and remainers happy.

How would that ID card system be implemented and work exactly? Would the card be demanded for all everyday transactions? Who's paying?

{Really, at this current time, we should just be spending time negotiating on the many fronts that the UK's departure from the EU necessitates. }

Negotiations with the EU are closed. The ONLY deal is the WA unless the UK wishes to revoke A50.
The UK had over 2 years to negotiate a deal, and didn't, so as a result the WA is the one and only. It seems that those who voted leave and far too many in government are oblivious to this fact.
The EU published it's plans for a no deal scenario yesterday, there are ONLY to help the EU to make closing down of whatever needs adjustment relatively straightforward FOR THE EU. It is the UK that is leaving, so ANY concessions by the EU that help the UK are a bonus to the UK. Some things have been a 9 or 12 month 'grace' period. This can be withdrawn by the EU at any moment it wishes.

ID cards are to be carried by EU citizens. They are usually 'credit card' size and I think legally you should have it with you at all times which since it would fit in your purse/wallet is not normally a problem.
Usually paid for by the country's government. While not normally needed for everyday use, it is handy for confirmation of details for collecting parcels or other important transactions. It is similar to a 'plastic' UK driving license, but has a bit more info on it.