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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

OP posts:
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Icantreachthepretzels · 17/12/2018 18:12

So - uhm - what does it do then?

TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 18:13

I hope desperately that Tatiana Larina will be proved right and that this all leads to a national govt and revoke

Woah I’m not saying this will happen, just that it should and could if people got their act together.

But we’ve been waiting for that for 2.5 years...

I think it’s quite possible that we tip off the No Deal cliff tbh.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 18:13

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 18:17

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:17

Sam Coates Timess@SamCoatesTimes*

Update from barrister working for the UK Government, former clerk @HouseofCommonss^:
.....
Daniel Whitfordd@DanielLWhitford*

A motion of no confidence in the PM personally does not attract the conventional priority given to such a motion in the Government.
The motion is likely to sit on the Order Paper until the next Opposition Day.
< When's that ? >

Apileofballyhoo · 17/12/2018 18:18

I thought next opposition day wasn't till 7th Jan or something.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 18:18

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

OlennasWimple · 17/12/2018 18:19

It’s very clear that it’s bad, unacceptable that we should be waiting almost a month before we have a meaningful vote on the crucial issue facing the future of this country.

The prime minister has obdurately refused to ensure a vote took place on the date she agreed, she refuses to allow a vote to take place this week and is now, I assume, thinking the vote will be on January 14 - almost a month away.

This is unacceptable in any way whatsoever.

So, as the only way I can think of ensuring a vote takes place this week, I’m about to table a motion which says the following: ‘That this House has no confidence in the prime minister due to her failure to allow the House of Commons to have a meaningful vote straight away on the withdrawal agreement and framework for future relationships between the UK and European Union.

That will be tabled immediately, Mr Speaker.

^^ Corbyn's statement / Point of Order just now

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:20

Is this a cunning plan to have an NC vote on May, rather than the govt ?

e.g. Could Corbyn even be supporting an ERG candidate ?
Or a better plan from Starmer ?

Or did Corbyn just get confused / not know the difference in procedure ?

Apileofballyhoo · 17/12/2018 18:21

But what will it do?

Apileofballyhoo · 17/12/2018 18:21

I doubt he's that confused...

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:22

I'd love to think that a large group of MPs, other than the ERG, had a plan 😰

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:24

Does an NC vote on May personally, not the govt, make it more likely that the ERG (& the DUP) would abstain, or even vote for it ?

MissMalice · 17/12/2018 18:25

Is it possible this gives him two throws of the dice? One shot to remove her by NC in her (by pressure, not obligation) and then reserving the right at a later date to remove the goverment by vote of NC?

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/12/2018 18:25

Has Corbyn just woken up?

Apileofballyhoo · 17/12/2018 18:27

Apparently it's political pressure not legal.

TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 18:27

I think Starmer and Sturgeon have given him a prod.

Apileofballyhoo · 17/12/2018 18:27

What Malice said I think.

Apileofballyhoo · 17/12/2018 18:28

Looks like he kicked the ball, ohlook!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:29

Daniel Whitfordd@DanielLWhitford* (the barrister working for the HoC)

Currently unscheduled as far as I'm aware (although I have no inside knowledge), so at a guess it's unlikely to be before the actual meaningful vote.

< so, sometime after "the week of 14 January" >

MissMalice · 17/12/2018 18:31

The government have to make time for vote on NC in PM. Going to look pretty poor if they block that as well as everything else they’ve blocked.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:31

How would that effect the votes on the WA of those who do / don't want to topple her ? 🤔

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:33

MissMalice If anyone in the govt had any sense of shame ....

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:36

Oh, we may need to cool down a bit: 🤦🏻‍♀️

Chris Whitee@cgwOMT*

A few points about “no confidence” motions.

  • This is not a no confidence vote under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act
  • It is a ‘censure’ motion that can only be debated when Labour have an Opposition Day debate
  • Govt does not have to give immediate time for debate 1/
...
  • Govt under no obligation to give this motion time for debate before meaningful vote
  • Govt can ignore the motion (as they currently do with all Opposition Day debates)
  • Even if Govt ‘lost’ the vote, it would have no effect other than to be mildly politically embarrassing 2/
... Therefore the best that can be said about Labour’s motion is that it will attract some media attention before Christmas, but have no impact whatsoever... 3/3
1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 18:36

With all this farcical messing about going on it is just as well that Brexit isn't important to anybody.