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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

OP posts:
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Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 18:39

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MissMalice · 17/12/2018 18:40

@Peston - Labour chief whip Nick Brown just told parliamentary Labour Party that @jeremycorbyn will table no-confidence motion in entire government under Fixed Term Parliament Act if @theresa_may refuses to give time tomorrow for no-confidence vote in her, Labour MP tells me.

Parker231 · 17/12/2018 18:41

Now some MP’s are saying they should have a debate to decide what parts of May’s agreement they do agree with. Why? The EU have already said they aren’t going to reopen discussions.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:42

So why the faffing around ?
Why not go straight for the NC motion that actually matters under the FTPA ?

MissMalice · 17/12/2018 18:44

1- because then it’s two throws of the dice
2- perhaps some Tory MPs have said they’ll vote against PM in NC of her but not against NC in entire govt?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:52

He'd get the NC vote on the govt sooner - even tomorrow if he wants - under FTPTA, because time has to be granted urgently for that.

Hazardswan · 17/12/2018 18:58

Ok I'm lost...i thought something had happened but it was just the threat of something happening?

Could these people stop fucking with us?

I've had a god awful day

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:59

I have 2 punchbags in my flat.
I need them

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 19:21

Do you call them Mogg and Boris by any chance?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 19:30

I've never named an inanimate object, but that's an idea
Trouble is, I'd need about 50 bags to virtually punch everyone why deserves it.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 19:31

Nicola Sturgeonn@NicolaSturgeon*

Labour tabling a motion just in the PM rather than in the entire government begs the question,
which Tory do they want to see as PM?

< yup, what I was asking >

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 19:43

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Icantreachthepretzels · 17/12/2018 19:57

So - if this is true:

Even if Govt ‘lost’ the vote, it would have no effect other than to be mildly politically embarrassing

Does this mean that, even in the event of TM losing, she still stays and nothing had changed?
Or are they going to topple her - and risk bringing in a headbanger?
I really don't understand what is happening ...

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 20:01

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GD12 · 17/12/2018 20:01

Well, the DUP have announced they'll be voting with May so the vote is lost even if it happens.

GD12 · 17/12/2018 20:02

We're totally f***, we really are.

MissMalice · 17/12/2018 20:06

Well that was a short lived glimmer of hope Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 20:07

The NC vote which Corbyn has tabled so far, which is against May, has NO effect
So the DUP and theoretically even the ERG could vote against her, to embafrass her further

If he actually goes ahead and tables an FTPA-compliant NC vote, then winning it would mean this govt falls
After that, there are 14 days for May / Corbyn / anyone to get at least a Confidence & Supply agreement that gives them a majority

BUT it is doubtful that Labour have the votes for this:

So far the DUP have said they would support the govt in official NC votes unless the WA is actually passed

Also, it would be very risky for the ERG to bring down their own govt because ....

There are 57 Conservative Seats with majorities of less than 4,000

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 20:08

Of course DUP have sided with her. Their endgame is no Deal. Rips up GFA. Job's a good 'un for those bastards.

BrexitDestruction · 17/12/2018 20:08

We're heading for No Deal, aren't we? Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 20:10

The DUP hate Corbyn so much, that they probably won't help him bring down the govt and give him a shot at PM,
unless the WA is passed

  • in which case it would just be a final revenge, nothing more,
because neither a new Tory nor new Labour govt is likely to over-turn a deal that has finally been signed off by the HoC
BackInTime · 17/12/2018 20:11

*@bellinisurge
This is my fear Sad

GD12 · 17/12/2018 20:17

WTF?!
Can't quite believe I'm typing this. But understand Corby is now trying to shift his position again. Apparently attempting to claim No Confidence motion in May should be treated in same way as No Confidence under Fixed-Term Parliament Act. Even though wording in Act is specific.

Also told Corbyn may now be considering completely reversion his position altogether, and tabling full No Confidence motion in government after all.

Dan Hodges

Hazardswan · 17/12/2018 20:19

Do we need a really big push from Ireland declaring a United Ireland Ref in the event of no deal? Because the DUP don't want that do they? So they'd not support no deal, so would either support WA (going against their red line) or revoke?

Ireland save us please!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 20:20

I had wondered if Corbyn was confused, putting the NC motion against May herself
but people didn't believe it

He's confusing everyone
So are the govt