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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 17:43

@GD12 , I think she's running down the clock to get support for the Withdrawal Agreement. I've caved. I'll support it to avoid No Deal.

DarlingNikita · 17/12/2018 17:44

Anyone else think May wants a no deal and is just running the clock down?

Yes, I've thought that for a while. Or, if she doesn't actively WANT a no deal, she is running the clock down because she doesn't know what else to do.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 17:45

Guardian reporting that the EU have said that flights can continue for up to 9 months in a 'no deal' scenario almost as they are but UK carriers can't hop between EU destinations. It is up to the EU when this leniency period elapses.

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 17:47

Pretty convinced she doesn't want No Deal. Unlike some of the meatheads in her party and on here.

TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 17:47

While I think she would probably revoke if it came to it, one can’t be sure. The fact she is willing to risk the entire economy - either to threaten No deal or go through with it, means that No Confidence should be the result. It’s totally irresponsible.

If WA goes down the Brexit Tories will turn to No Deal.

At that point I think there should be a vote on No Deal OR a No Confidence vote.

Don’t agree with BigChoc’s timeline there.

Hasenstein · 17/12/2018 17:47

Ha!

I just suggested on another website that people calling for us to leave on WTO rules should spend a little time watching Graham Hughes' viedo on the subject which was posted upthread on here.

Within a few seconds I'd got my first "Down" votes Grin. Either they're pretty fast watchers or they are just wilfully refusing to inform themselves. Wonder which it is?

TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 17:48

It’s difficult to know whether she genuinely doesn’t mind No Deal or she’s just playing chicken, but either should be sackable offences for a PM and the entire party.

GD12 · 17/12/2018 17:49

I think you're probably right Bellinisurge. Question is what does she do when it's voted down? Id accept it if it meant no deal but God, its a bad deal.

GD12 · 17/12/2018 17:49

^^^if it meant no no deal.

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 17:50

When it's voted down (if it's voted down) I am pretty sure that some kind of cross-party anti- No Deal will happen.

MissMalice · 17/12/2018 17:52

She’s just said in the commons that if the deal is voted down, the process after that is set out in legislation and that is what the government will follow.

TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 17:54

I agree bellini if a WA gets voted down, No Deal is the next showdown.

MissMalice · 17/12/2018 17:54

JC tabling motion of no confidence immediately.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 17:55

Since the video is fractionally under 30 minutes long they can't have watched it and digested the points raised.
I would happily concede that if some of the 8 points were taken to court, meaning full legal proof checking there may be some element of inaccuracy however it is not necessarily the content but time that is an issue. Arguing the legality of supplying food might take years, during which you starve, even if you might have been proven correct.
It is a bit like bank and other data 'security', everything can be 'cracked' eventually but it works because the time taken to break the security makes the data irrelevant.

TatianaLarina · 17/12/2018 17:55

One would hope so MissMalice

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 17:58

The problem we have had from the start of May*s Premiership is that she is prioritising the Tory party^
and in avoiding the kind of internal party civil war that could destroy them

No, I don't think May actually wants a No Deal, but she may judge that all the alternatives would be more damaging to her party

She warned before the ref about trade deals, about the NI border, so she was actually well-informed then

This is an example of why May is dithering

  • The Torygraph listed how the Cabinet current stand on the various options (some of which are ridiculous / unavailable):

8 second referendum or Norway
6 Managed no-deal
6 Unclear
4 Managed no-deal or Canada
2 Norway
1 Norway or Canada

Aargh !
The Cabinet are hopelessly split into tiny factions - wanting unavailable options, probably the party too

"Managed No-deal" is delusional bollocks, but 10 of them are advocating this
Norway would refuse us - although a 3rd EEA pillar with SM+CU etc would be fine if we had time
Canada violates the NI backstop, so the EU would refuse

GD12 · 17/12/2018 17:58

Corbyns tabling a no confidence now? What? I thought after this afternoon he wasn't?

GD12 · 17/12/2018 17:59

Corbyn seems to have just put down a motion of no confidence in the Prime Minister after all - just happened in Commons - must have changed minds again after the tone of the debate this afternoon

Laura Kuensseberg

WTH is going on?!

OlennasWimple · 17/12/2018 18:05

Blimey! Fasten your seat belts, everyone...

Mrsr8 · 17/12/2018 18:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 18:09

Wow, what happened on his allotment !

MissMalice · 17/12/2018 18:09

What’s the procedure now? Will there be on a vote on that today?

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/12/2018 18:10

Holy shit!

I hope desperately that Tatiana Larina will be proved right and that this all leads to a national govt and revoke. I would so love to have been wrong on the possibility of that. But ... nothing has gone well thus far. This could turn out to be the worst thing that has happened yet.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 18:11

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Random18 · 17/12/2018 18:12

Can only hope this works.
She is out of control now and trying to kill time to push her deal through even if it’s got no support.

Would much prefer her deal than no deal but if if could be stopped...........