Second Referendum

[Neweternal]

Ok I don't understand I knew it was a risk leaving and it may initially make us poorer but for many reasons thinking 20 years on I felt it is the right thing for the country to leave the EU.

Second referendum if it transpires I will vote the same way. Yes Brexit is hard but you don't give up something because it's difficult. I have a chum who has shifted from remain to Brexit which surprised me.

What happens when and if the second referendum is again leave? To remainers accept we KNEW it wasn't going to be easy but we want sovereignty and not tied to the EU.

There was a bit of arrogance prior to the referendum with IN almost thinking they had it in the bag, same thing now!

Yes and if labour did this it would lose many voters. They lied to their voters last general election by saying they supported the Brexit vote. Trying to overturn it ? What leave labour voter is going to vote for that? A lot of leavers were in labour constituencies.

I didn't say that policies implemented by the government are easily changed. Take Universal Credit: it's been rolled out to most areas now and scrapping it would be hugely expensive - but not impossible. Instead cancelling Brexit if it proves to be a disaster after 29th March is impossible. We'd have to rejoin if we decided it was a mistake. That'd be a lot harder than scrapping UC and, crucially, it would need the agreement of 27 other governments. We wouldn't necessarily rejoin on the same favourable terms as we were on before with all the concessions the UK governments managed to get over the years. See, it is a permanent decision - we can't go back to how things were if we leave if we realise it was a disaster.

So you think Brexit is a right/left thing, @Neweternal . Just shows how much you know or understand.

Yes and if labour did this it would lose many voters. They lied to their voters last general election by saying they supported the Brexit vote.
I'm advocating a new manifesto where Labour would take a different position on Brexit than at the last GE. They wouldn't be lying to voters, they have not opposed Brexit up until now, have they?

Trying to overturn it ? What leave labour voter is going to vote for that? A lot of leavers were in labour constituencies.
Yes they'd lose votes but at the end of the day elections are won and lost on a few thousand swing voters in marginal constituencies.
I admit that I don't have the means to work out if Labour could swing the vote in enough marginal constituencies if they embraced a full and proper Remain policy. But it is possible and in that case it wouldn't matter a jot if votes were lost overall.

I have never ever voted Labour in my life and could never imagine a situation where I would
BUT if they could guarantee a 2nd ref I would do it

@bellinisurge ok then it's about globalisation which a lot of people are against. Do you Paris on the news, it's not just about fuel prices and a lot of their population would also like to leave the EU it's a sinking ship!

Define 'a lot'
12, 120, 1200, 120000?

Maybe we should all go back to some sort of agrarian self sustainability. Pol Pot tried that.
And just so you know, extremists use the word "globalists" as code for Jews. Be careful how you use terms you parrot from your handbook.

WTO/no-deal = never will happen, Parliament (even most of the ERG) are too responsible to let it.

May's deal = 'worst of all worlds'

Remain = 'will of the people' said no way.

What's left? PV? The problem is what will be on the ballot paper. How can remain be an option when it was ruled out in 2016? How can a PV bring people back together when the confidence in the next vote will be as flimsy as the last?

Moment of clarity: this will end in a GE. It has to because all other options are dead (once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable....).

@neweternal

What is globalisation and how is it related to brexit? I heard the term thrown around before, but I’d be lying if I really knew what it meant. Again I’m genuinely asking, not being snarky.

{Neweternal }
The GJ in France have listed Frexit as one of 25 'demands'.
The GJ is not a political party and in fact the 'supporters' who have made these demands do not represent the vast majority, which started as a protest about a significant hike in fuel prices. I think it would take it to near £1.60 per litre had it gone through, but Macron has cancelled the proposed rise. The ones making the real headlines today are the real 'headbangers' with similar roots to Tommy Robinson. Going armed with bottles of petrol and other weapons is not the protest that the GJ have been conducting for the last few weeks.
Macron is not wanting to Frexit, and neither is Marine lePen.
While some in the UK might take great pleasure in the EU breaking up it would be an exceedingly dangerous move if it did, probably leading to war. At that point, the UK as a small island would be very badly affected. The jingoistic bollocks about 'Britain won WW2' is almost complete crap. Yes it participated but as part of it's name 'World War' there were a lot of others joining in.

Well I’ve read the Wikipedia article about globalisation, and I’m none the wiser. It says:

“As a complex and multifaceted phenomenon, globalization is considered as a form of capitalist expansion which entails the integration of local and national economies into a global, unregulated market economy”.

So, if the no deal situation is what you want, wouldn’t that mean more of this (signing trade deals across the planet), rather than less of it?

I don’t get it. My head hurts. I’m going off to pretend none of this is happening for the rest of the weekend.

Have a good rest of the weekend all

Globalisation is the way that many products have a manufacturing chain that extends around the world. An engine for a car might use Aluminium mined in Australia, turned into blocks of metal somewhere else, machined into the engine block itself in Germany and fitted to the rest of a car in Swindon. Although it may seem bonkers to do this, it is usually the most efficient way of doing this.
Storage of things costs big money so you will have heard the term 'Just in time'. in the scenario above, the engine block from Germany goes on a truck and arrives in Swindon within an hour or so of being bolted into the car. The same with all the thousands of other parts. This relies on trucks arriving when they should and any delay will bugger things up. If even 1 bolt does not arrive in Swindon at the right time, the assembly line has to stop. Stopping the line that assembles Minis for 24 hours costs BMW something like £60 Million.
Similar processes are going on for much of what you consume.Fruit and veg from Spain is picked one day and could well be on your table by the following teatime.

Yes, A 'no deal' decision buggers things up considerably.
As the UK would have to renegotiate trade deals which can take 10 or more years, the UK would be seriously noncompetitive during this period and companies within Europe particularly, like BMW will find it more profitable to abandon manufacturing in the UK.

@TwinkleToes101

GE solves nothing, we'd need an extension to art50 and new political statement from either main party, or we are just where we are now only its july!

Following your logic ..... Labour LibDem cannot stand at the next GE because the electorate didn't want them at the last GE... that isn't how democracy works!

People can change their minds or not! either side could lose in another PV but the electorate wouldn't face the same questions nor without some idea of the consequences.

Latest polls are that Mays and no-deal are both on 27% with remain on 46% so in a 2 question ballot, it would no doubt be close but that is no reason not to have it.

@1tisILeClerc Macwrong is a globalist. France has plenty problems both the left and right are fed up with globalisation. The EU is dying, let's just get out now!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6474065/amp/Hundreds-yellow-vest-protesters-detained-Paris.html

Marie le penn did want a vote on Frexit. Or did she change he mind?

globalnews.ca/news/3265287/frexit-marine-le-pen-france-independence-eu/amp/

{ The EU is dying, let's just get out now! }
OK I will take your word for it but you will need to explain how the UK is going to do any better. India, the USA, Norway (representing EEA?) and about another 10 countries have already put a caution on signing up to trade deals with the UK. The rest of the world is taking it in turns to accidentally be looking the wrong way. Basing the UK economy on selling Tiptree jam to Australia won't get you far. Of course the biggest problem that will face the UK is that the government hasn't acknowledged what was wrong in the first place. You have ministers claiming there is hardly any poverty so the chances of significant improvement is slim, combined with the recession that is likely to be caused by actually leaving.

@1tisILeClerc I actually don't believe we do have real poverty like in the 1950s or India. I had a lefty client of mine insisting i watch I Daniel Blake. I worked as a teenager in the DSS I know what goes on. Unemployment is low. Yes we have more food banks. In the olden days we had crisis loans given out by the DSS until they got benefits, now it's food banks. Personally I believe they should have kept crisis loans but perhaps there were issues paying it back. Staying in the EU and importing more slave labour who's backgrounds we know little about will not help poverty. Why do you want to stay in the EU? What age are you?

Staying in the EU and importing more slave labour who's backgrounds we know little about will not help poverty.
Trying to decipher what you actually mean here. You're saying that EU workers have dubious backgrounds? This is just racism plain and simple isn't it? You still haven't answered the questions from earlier namely , who is going to do the essential work done by EU workers if they go home?

@recently hopefully get some skilled labour from the commonwealth and as for these fruit pickers bring them in on a seasonal visa. I would like to see our population go down in general though. We are an overpopulated island.

I work all over Europe and I need some of the aspects of FoM to get to my clients in a timely manner. I am 21, as are all women.

FFS there is no such thing as slave labour in the UK - not legal labour in any case

@jasjas1973
Following your logic ..... Labour LibDem cannot stand at the next GE because the electorate didn't want them at the last GE... that isn't how democracy works I'm not following your logic.

PV would only give people a choice between:

May vs Remain

May vs WTO

Or three way vote: May vs Remain vs WTO.

IMvvvvHO, WTO would never be put on the ballot (no one would be that mad irresponsible). Remain morally should not be put on the ballot. You could have: this is May's deal, do you agree or disagree? But that would be all.

A GE might fail to get a majority, in which case you repoll till you get one. May is fucked because she gifted gave away her majority. As the current unstable, directionless country can not continue for many reasons, a decision is needed. The only way a decision can be taken is with a majority government. Coalition has been proven (or will soon be proven) to be impossible to move forward on this issue. We are at STALE MATE.

I believe if a Tory Brexit leader came along like Boris. This general election the toured would win and push through hard Brexit.

@1tisILeClerc Aah your own agenda then

Not toured stories would win.