Second Referendum

[Neweternal]

Ok I don't understand I knew it was a risk leaving and it may initially make us poorer but for many reasons thinking 20 years on I felt it is the right thing for the country to leave the EU.

Second referendum if it transpires I will vote the same way. Yes Brexit is hard but you don't give up something because it's difficult. I have a chum who has shifted from remain to Brexit which surprised me.

What happens when and if the second referendum is again leave? To remainers accept we KNEW it wasn't going to be easy but we want sovereignty and not tied to the EU.

There was a bit of arrogance prior to the referendum with IN almost thinking they had it in the bag, same thing now!

@recently what official British citizens did not get the vote?
UK citizens living abroad for over 15 years - no good reason not to give them a vote as Brexit completely changes their status.

I have said repeatedly before, I would feel a lot better about the whole shitshow if we did get another Leave result, even if it were a narrow one.

There were very many loud Bregetters in late June 2016. "Will of the People" rings hollow when I think of the collective Shock everyone (especially people who said they had voted Leave) felt and openly expressed in the week after 23.6.18.

As a Remainer I want a Resounding Remain result, at least 70% for Remain. This giant 20 yr hassle for intangible benefits but definite multifaceted problems is exactly what I voted against & it's being shoved down my throat, anyway. Only a 70%+ margin for Remain will settle anything.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my perception of public mood was by start June 2016 that the outcome was too close to call. Certainly not "in the bag".

I guess both sides see other as intractable. When leavers are in power & the party in power has promised to Brexit, why are Leavers blaming Remain for the current crisis? We told you there would be giant hassle. You voted for it anyway. You wanted disruption. You got it. Own it.

As far as I know yes they have a right to return but the rules on voting have been changed a few times.

In any case, even if you don't think they should vote in general elections, they should definitely have been given a vote in this referendum which took away their basic rights without having a say.

@Neweternal
What do you personally expect to be better for you and your family after Brexit?

The UK set down "red lines" for its Brexit deal with the EU
the options now are ....
No deal = jumping out of the plane with no parachute
May's deal = jumping out of the plane with a cheap parachute
Cancelling A50 = staying on the plane

which would you vote for now?
and why ?

I have said repeatedly before, I would feel a lot better about the whole shitshow if we did get another Leave result, even if it were a narrow one.

I'm not proud to say this, I'll never be ok with a Leave vote. No it's not democratic of me to say this but I'm convinced it was foolish to pose a question of this magnitude to the public. The question should have been asked in a parliamentary vote, if a vote on EU membership was felt absolutely necessary (it wasn't imo).
FWIW I'm coherent in my views and I don't support a second referendum either because I don't believe that whatever result we'd get would have any intrinsic value or tell us anything new. We know this country is divided and the question is just not one that can be answered by the public . There's too much at stake.

20 years on??? whatever! you nor i have no idea what world events could fcuk up that prediction!

@Neweternal would you accept if remain won on a straight Remain or Leave on No-Deal vote ?

Many leavers say they'd riot, indeed Farage said he'd pick up a rifle (thats against the Crown)...patriotic type isn't he.

you don't give up something because it's difficult.
But you do, or should, give it up if it's stupid, self-destructive and comes with no benefits whatsoever.

Neweternal you made reference in your OP to wanting sovereignty.

Do you know Westminster had sovereignty all along?

The sound bites about sovereignty were a trick of the Leave campaign.

" Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership to the EU” despite people “not always feeling like that” was expressly stated in the small print in the White paper leading to the Withdrawal Act.

The key message from the Leave campaign was constantly repeating the myth that ending the UK’s membership of the EU would "bring back sovereignty" to Parliament .The talk of ending Brussel's control over national laws was a fiction because it never had control.

National governments including ours always retained sovereignty.

If you think about it -Westminster deals with health, pensions, universal credit, personal taxation, national insurance, education, defence, local government remits, crime, punishment, marriage and family law, property, planning, fiscal policy, elections, electoral boundaries, policing, inheritance etc etc .

Westminster allocates 99.3% of GDP on these things.

0.7% of GDP was our EU membership fee. We chose ( using sovereignty) to delegate some shared regulation making in which we had a joint say. This gave us a reciprocal right to drive policy and vote on what happens in Belgium, Portugal, Germany etc.

This shared regulation making only applies in limited subject areas linked to trade, namely, food , agriculture, consumer safety, some worker's rights and environment.

Why do you perpetuate the myth about our laws when it simply isn't true?

What positive difference will changing the process for a few food and environmental standards etc make to your life?

Were you aware that we jointly set good and environmental standards etc in Germany, Spain etc and we will now no longer do that?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/589191/TheeUnitedKingdomssexitfrommandpartnershippwiththeeEUWeb.pdf

Paragraph 2.1 contains the admission.

Extraordinary for a white-paper to talk about feelings compared to the reality.

Shared sovereignty is a contradiction in terms. Shared sovereignty is not sovereignty.

I don’t want a reciprocal right to “drive policy” in German, Belgium or anywhere else. I want my voice to count here in the UK and the wishes of voters in the UK to be the only ones that count here, thank you.

LouiseCollins
So which Brexit option do you want?
And once Brexit happens, how do you expect the sovereignty changes to impact your daily life?

Saying that European Law is our law because we accepted it when we have little choice but to do otherwise is an nonsense. Those laws did not originate in our parliament and once in place, the cannot be removed by our parliament unless we leave the EU

If you vote again to leave you deserve what you get. Problem is I'll get it too, and I neither want nor deserve it. Brexit has no upsides.

LouiseCollins
Those laws did not originate in our parliament and once in place, the cannot be removed by our parliament unless we leave the EU
Which EU Laws do you want taken off the UK statute book?
And Why?

I will be able to remove the elected officials who make our laws. This “daily life” straw man is nonsense. It isn’t about my “daily life”, it is about our ability as a nation to govern ourselves.

I think there is frankly no benefit that I could identify that many remain voters would agree is a benefit, so there is no point my doing that. If I do I just get angry responses at and the argument just circles for ever.

The leave vote has always been split, since the original referendum. No one was clear about what leave meant, so all leavers were voting for different kinds of leave. There has never ever been a consensus on the leave side.

Louisecollins
I will be able to remove the elected officials who make our laws.
So which laws do you not want UK politicians and unelected civil servants to ratify?

I think there is frankly no benefit that I could identify that many remain voters would agree is a benefit
Try us

@talkinpeace, lol how long have you got. Just as a few examples.

I want consumer goods governed by British Standards
I want us to set our own policies in terms of agrigculture, fisheries, and animal welfare standards
I want the government to have recourse to offer state aid to businesses.
I want a British standard on workers rights, not European ones

Why do I want these changes? because I want to be able to hold the eleceted people responsible for making our laws here in the UK accountable for what they do, at the ballot box, in the UK

LouiseCollins
So when those standards are a lot lower than you are used to
(as Rees Mogg has openly said is his plan)
will you be happy?

Louise

You wont be able to remove them anymore than you can do at present, yours is just a lone voice, if few agree with you... what then?

Of course we all want to Govern ourselves but at the end of the day, we share sovereignty over many things, UN, NATO, our relationship and reliance on the USA... we need to decide, on balance, what we gain and/or lose.

So two specific areas within the EU is our ability to access criminal and security databases,
the other is Galileo GPS

so we pool sovereignty and we gain immensely from it.

When we leave the EU, we'll lose some access to both and we cannot realistic build our own.

You are making an assumption about what standards may apply in the future after Brexit. You are also dangerously close to making an assumption about the kind of standards I want to see in the future.

Jacob Rees Mogg is not in the government, nor has he expressed any desire to be.

As to whether I will be happy, or not? I will be happy if we set the standards. That is my main point.

Saying that European Law is our law because we accepted it when we have little choice but to do otherwise is an nonsense.
We also wrote it. In fact, we have very rarely objected to European laws that have passed. Don't pretend it was foisted on us against our will.

One voice in an electorate of 70000 ish in each Westminster seat is a tiny proportion but it’s plenty bigger than one compared to the adult voting pop of the Eu at maybe 400 million and bigger than 1 in 150k for each MEP seat

We did not write it! We had a share in writing it, that isn’t the same thing. I don’t want our elected representatives to have a share in writing our laws, I want them to write them.