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Brexit

Westministenders: Passing the Buck

993 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2018 14:24

There's a deal.

The press are over excited.

May has united the country.

Everyone hates it.
(Apart from David Allen Green)

Parliament might yet reject it.

Nothing is yet decided and everything is still to be sorted.

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Peregrina · 15/11/2018 01:41

The current govt are enabled to be ruthless against those on benefits, asylum seekes etc
because people vote for these policies

Unless of course, they are like that woman, Michelle, who was a natural Tory, from a Tory background who was quite happy to vote for them and their policies. She probably assumed that benefit scroungers were those who wouldn't work, and didn't read the small print which said that it included people like her, on working tax credits. She's now joined Momentum. I wonder how many more are like her? There was a time when people who had aspirations switched to voting Tory, but now the age they do that is rising.

Whether Momentum will help in the long term is maybe a different question, but the Labour party don't IMO have that visceral hatred of ordinary people that the Tories have.

Desperate people, who have lost everything, may riot, then look for scapegoats, rather than admit it's their own damn bad choices

I will have to go away and ponder this. With Thatcherism, which laid waste to heavy industry, most people affected could say that they didn't vote for her. (Although as it has been pointed out, she was in power for 11 years so someone must have done.) This time a lot did vote Leave, but as the last election showed, when the chips were down, quite a lot reverted to their old voting patterns and May didn't get the huge majority she expected. I think what I am trying to say is that we really don't know how people will respond. May was riding high until that election - a lot of what she said ticked a lot of boxes for people, but it went wrong.

I don't myself buy the idea that 80% of people voted for pro-Brexit parties, which is bandied about - I think a lot shuddered at the thought of the Tories getting in again and doing yet more damage to the NHS.

Quietrebel · 15/11/2018 04:02

Let's try to avoid things getting really bad, like the 51st state,
which a US FTA would do

@BCF I agree except that states within the US have representation and we wouldn't. It would be more like a colony situation. I know you know that and it was a figure of speech but the only reason I point this out is that some people might find being part of the US attractive iyswim. It wouldn't be nowhere near as good.

Quietrebel · 15/11/2018 04:03
  • would be nowhere near as good
2bright · 15/11/2018 05:33

Can NS be bought for the deal if she is promised a second indy ref?

HesterThrale · 15/11/2018 05:54

Nicola Sturgeon is cross, and rightly so:

Not long off call with PM. She tried to tell me Scotland’s ‘distinctive’ interests had been protected. I pointed out that there isn’t a single mention of Scotland in the agreement, that it disregards our interests, and puts Scotland at a serious competitive disadvantage.

mobile.twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1062829567235252225

DGRossetti · 15/11/2018 06:39

Tory Brexiters become angrier and angrier as they wade through 585 pages of the Withdrawal Agreement. “This is a worse capitulation than we feared” said one. They tell me there will be enough letters in with Brady of ‘22 C’ttee by lunch tomorrow to force vote of confidence!

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sorry, we heard this back in summer. Change PM now, and this deal goes with her. Absolutely no time to renegotiate - no deal it is.

I think having had a deal dangled before them, there will be enough MPs to push it through with some sort of fiddle for the HoC numbers.

(whistles a Disney tune who's afraid of the ee ar gee, ee ar gee, ee ar gee ? )

Any incoming PM might feel the safest way out is a 2nd referendum. It's not as if UK PMs haven't a track record for offloading leadership.

DGRossetti · 15/11/2018 06:57

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/14/brexit_defra_pac_report_november/

The UK's food and farming department has yet to test six critical IT systems ahead of Brexit and may have to rely on manual workarounds or "unsophisticated" tech, MPs have warned.

As the UK creeps ever closer to 29 March, 2019, when it is due to leave the European Union, reports of unreadiness are rolling in thick and fast.

(contd)

Peregrina · 15/11/2018 07:26

I agree except that states within the US have representation and we wouldn't.

For all their screaming about 'Take back control' and 'Sovereignty' the Brexiteers seem to have absolutely no problem with this. In the same way that they have absolutely no problem with an American driven NATO but get their knickers in a twist about vague talk of an EU Army.

Motheroffourdragons · 15/11/2018 07:27

This reply has been withdrawn

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mathanxiety · 15/11/2018 07:29

Quietrebel
It could be like DC - 'taxation without representation'...

I agree with Prettybird's analysis of creeping fascism, and would like to add to the list contempt for international treaties and lack of uproar in response to the contempt.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 15/11/2018 07:32

David Allen Green
@davidallengreen
The one observation about the 585 pages of the withdrawal agreement I can make is....

...the word "Brexit" does not appear.

Scotland and Wales are indeed not mentioned.

Nor is England, other than three references limiting the role/recognition of the Bank of England as a central bank.

Ireland mentioned 141 times.

Gibraltar, 30 times.

UK bases in Cyprus, (at least) 10 times.

Motheroffourdragons · 15/11/2018 07:35

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Mrsr8 · 15/11/2018 07:35

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MissMalice · 15/11/2018 07:39

Surely NS won’t be offered 2nd indyref after all the effort gone in to keep the union together.

Mrsr8 · 15/11/2018 07:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lonelyplanetmum · 15/11/2018 07:45

and would like to add to the list contempt for international treaties

This triggered a new thought I only just had. It's an aside to ploughing through the WA.

There is contempt for international treaties not just the GFA and international organisations too.

Which other organisations did or do Leavers, JRM and co want out of? I am guessing Farage and his ilk would reject all of them?

There's a list ( only on wiki) here. But there are so very many organisations . Which other groups should we have had a referendum about? I would like JRM to go through the list for me and say yes/ no to each.

Is it really only the agricultural, employee and environmental standards coordination that drove the anti EU focus? We seem to be keeping those standards anyway ( phew!).

Why isn't there a focus on all the other international committees, treaties and memberships?

lonelyplanetmum · 15/11/2018 07:48

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listoffintergovernmentalorganizations

I really want a yes/ no response about which of these organisations are ok in a Leaver, Brexiter, ERG stand point. Thinking of writing to Farage to ask him!

Back to the withdrawal agreement now!

borntobequiet · 15/11/2018 07:51

Thanks to everyone for information and thoughts posted here. In south of Spain (pleasantly warm) but feel a million miles away, trying to only think about the U.K. mornings and evenings. Back Saturday, who knows what the situation will be then!

bellinisurge · 15/11/2018 07:51

If NS is offered another referendum in exchange for supporting the deal, she might go for it. The withdrawal agreement makes no mention of Scotland so TM is playing a risky game.

Peregrina · 15/11/2018 07:51

The Cabinet is supposed to have agreed the Agreement, but they agreed Chequers and then Davis and Johnson had a strop and walked out, and then only the other week, half the Cabinet said they hadn't been happy with it.

MyBrexitIsIll · 15/11/2018 07:56

I agree with woman, prettybird and misti.

The situation is very worrying. I would talk about fascism because the Tories are in power atm and it’s the ERG that is the driving force for No Deal.
But I think it runs much deeper than that and that most of the ideas/ideology we are talking about are part of the Conservatives ideal.

Remember too how awful the ECHR is? They dare stopping us from doing what we want! Never mind it shouldn’t happen if there was abit if decency.

Tbh what is needed in this country is a counter power. One that will actually defend human rights. That’s notbthe Labour Party (even though I would have assumed it would have been part of his ideology. Protecting people incl the weakest membersbif the society and all that)

Motheroffourdragons · 15/11/2018 07:56

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2018 08:00

Robert Peston @peston
Why Tory MPs tell me they expect at least 48 letters of no confidence in Theresa May to have been lodged with Brady of 1922 committee by lunchtime today

t.co/dbyYjtIun1
Peston on FB

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KennDodd · 15/11/2018 08:00

Has anybody read the WA? I haven't even looked at it myself yet. I fear even if I did read it I wouldn't be able to understand it, I'm not a lawyer and even if I was I suspect the amount of background knowledge of history, politics, economics even fishing etc would mean it would fly over my head. Oh for a bunch of experts! Does anybody know where I could find an unbiased (!) description of the contents?

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2018 08:03

Peston saying that Brexiteers intend to demonstrate she can not pass a deal through parliament via a show of letters to Brady. They are saying they don't need to win a no confidence vote. Just prove she can't get a deal through.

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