Any Brexiters who have changed your minds....?

[onlyconnect]

If you voted Brexit but would now like to remain, could you call loudly for a second referendum please?
I'm a remainer and see the obvious problems with remainers asking for a second referendum but if former Brexiters were to ask, it would have legitimacy surely.

Outside - I agree with a lot of your points raised BUT am delurking to say your last post is very offensive and completely unnecessary to the discussion (and I have a very thick skin).

bellinisurge - "Which side ". Don't be so fucking insulting. Disgusting."

Why is this insulting? I have an uncle whose mother was German (and whose father fought on the German side (obviously) during the war, Afrika Korps IIRC. Don't you like Germans or something?

Incidently I have Irish relatives who are very Republican in their views, and live down in Bandit Country but also Irish Catholic relatives who have married British soldiers and airmen. Also have a couple of Catholic cousins in the PSNI (old-RUC).

Maybe it's because we just get along with people of whatever political or national persuasion.

My "which side?" comment was tongue-in-cheek but your reaction says an awful lot about you I think.

all right, you can have the port of Harwich instead, they do lots of RoRo and they average 15 seconds. Oh well, what do they know?

Not sure what your point is here. That’s whilst the UK is in the CU/SM, so minimal checks required.

Port of Dover, for instance, estimates that it takes 2 mins on average to clear EU lorries, and 20 minutes to clear the non EU lorries which account for less than 3% of port traffic.

After Brexit and you start to need applying fuller checks to all trucks ... well I’m sure you can do the maths.

I voted leave and massively regret it. I would change my vote if I could.

In the course of the last day or two on mumsnet, I've been accused of:

1. lying about my family
2. lying about my education (apparently I went to the university of the Early Learning Centre) and not a real university
3. promoting or encouraging a return to violence in Northern Ireland/not giving a toss about their lives
4. hating/disliking foreigners 5),6),7)…..and on and on - can't be arsed to look them all up.

Why? Because I support Leave and present some (fairly) rational arguments for it (though I've not had many in return).

Typical SJW Remainers, always being offended on someone else's behalf.

You're all going to have a flipping coronary if I tell you I'm black :-)
Your heads will literally explode.

Alright, I made the bit about being black up.

You can all calm down now....phew!

You missed out insulting war veterans.

I'm still waiting to hear how you are going to withdraw your consent to be governed? You seem to be ignoring that.

Buteo - "Not sure what your point is here. That’s whilst the UK is in the CU/SM, so minimal checks required.

Port of Dover, for instance, estimates that it takes 2 mins on average to clear EU lorries, and 20 minutes to clear the non EU lorries which account for less than 3% of port traffic.

After Brexit and you start to need applying fuller checks to all trucks ... well I’m sure you can do the maths."

The 15 seconds at Harwich is for non-EU.

Dover, which obviously handles mostly EU traffic (why on earth would a non-EU ship dock there to unload when lots of other ports are available) is obviously going to be the most affected but having said that it's not an insurmountable problem.

Not every EU lorry entering Dover is stopped and checked. Nobody literally unloads and unpacks and product-tests every item. It's done on trust. The same applies to non-EU imports. I often buy French beans exported from Kenya. These manage to get into the UK perfectly fine and aren't waiting at the port/airport rotting away before they reach my table.
Remember, the source of the imports is not going to change - the oranges/lettuces from Spain will still be arriving daily, the production conditions of said produce hasn't changed e.g. phyto-sanitary regs etc. The only thing that changes post-Brexit is that the UK isn't in the EU. We can happily waive the stuff through in the same way as now with no issues.

Oh, maybe someone will lodge an appeal at the WTO about it but I doubt the non-existent lettuce growers and export industries of Botswana will be able to provide evidence of material loss, which is what would be needed to win a WTO complaint.

Bellinisurge - sorry but I don't subscribe to the hero-worship mania surrounding war that is gripping the nation at the moment. My father, uncles and cousins who have all served don't either. My dad has never worn a poppy despite serving 23 years in the RAF.

War is bad, mad and wrong.

"2. lying about my education (apparently I went to the university of the Early Learning Centre) and not a real university"

Well, as an economist your points don't seem to add up.

Your points regarding FDIO being used as a judgment on how appealing different international markets are were poorly made, and erroneous.

Your assertions about the single market and intra EU trade were also incorrect and you attempted to use a piece of information which showed that non EU trade was increasing faster than intra EU trade to show that the single market had not been a success - it doesn't show that at all, for a variety of reasons.

You have made incorrect statements about FTAs and EU MFN status within FTAs.

Your arguments are littered with fallacious points, and appeals ( even your claim to be an economist is an appeal to authority) which demonstrates that they are poorly constructed, and therefore easy to dismiss.

So yeah, I will question your education.

KennDodd - "I'm still waiting to hear how you are going to withdraw your consent to be governed? You seem to be ignoring that"

Sorry, just too busy.

Here you are: a starter for 10.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

BorisBogtrotter - "even your claim to be an economist is an appeal to authority"

I have never claimed to be an economist. I have claimed (correctly) that I read economics at university (and not the Early Learning Centre University).

As for the rest of your comment - perhaps if you'd read the documents you linked to then you would have seen that they did not support your claim. You obviously didn't like it when I pointed that out.

Please point out the fallacious claims and link to evidence to support your refutations of them. Hint - don't link to documents that don't - e.g. 25 out of 28 EU countries are doing better at trading with non-EU countries that those in the single market.

End of term report: Must try harder.

" have claimed (correctly) that I read economics at university "

Thats an appeal to authority because it suggests that you are some kind of export.

"You obviously didn't like it when I pointed that out."

You didn't, you also failed to note that Intra EU trade was also growing.

"25 out of 28 EU countries are doing better at trading with non-EU countries that those in the single market."

This is not what the document said, you are incorrectly assessing it. What the document shows, and states, is that the ratio of trade with other EU member states to non EU member states decreased.

The document, if you had read and understood it, actually shows that EU inter trade has increased, but the ratio has decreased. Which means that trade outside of the EU is growing at a faster rate, but this is to be expected because of convergence. In fact what the document shows is that all countries other than the United Kingdom, exported more goods to partners within the EU than outside the EU. Which is backed up as 44% of UK exports go to EU countries.

However not commented on is how of those exports to other countries have increased because of EU FTAs. 15% of the UK's trade outside of the EU is based on EU FTAs.

So no, I didn't read it incorrectly, you did.

Thank you OutsideInTheGarden

What civil disobedience are you planning? And do you think it will be justified if the 2016 referendum is overturned by a later referendum? Ìf so are the people of NI justified in civil disobedience if their referendum (GFA) is overturned by the 2016 referendum especially considering the people of NI voted to remain? Likewise the people of Scotland who were told that voting to remain part of the UK was the only way to retain EU membership?

I have never claimed to be an economist. I have claimed (correctly) that I read economics at university

And do you think this study means you are better informed that Nobel prize winning economics and 90% of professional economist's who think Brexit will bad for the UK economy?

The 15 seconds at Harwich is for non-EU

And how much of that will be the non-EU freight that has already undergone full checks on entry to the SM at Rotterdam then?

Sorry, just too busy.

Outside has been posting all weekend and all day today!

Agreed, its rather interesting that someone with such an important job would be able to post all day and all weekend, as well as late into the night last night.

{'Automation' is Outside's cry - but then someone has to design and implement the automated systems.}
HMRC, responsible for all the extra 'paperwork' have said the current system is only around a third of the capacity that will be needed. The new system MIGHT be ready to start testing a few months into the new year. We all know how well new, government computer systems work when introduced.

it suggests that you are some kind of export.

@Boris - he might want to come across as an expert, but is very probably an export from somewhere cold 😁

Sorry that was a typo.

@OutsideInTheGarden
You've said you know 150 leave voters, all of whom would now vote for 'no deal' (I believe it was you please forgive me if not).

How do you know how so many people voted and what they want now? Assuming you are being honest the only way I could imagine somebody could know this would be if they were a member of some Leave supporting group?

Outside has been posting all weekend and all day today!
Yes, he has been a very, very busy boy indeed.