Any Brexiters who have changed your minds....?

[onlyconnect]

If you voted Brexit but would now like to remain, could you call loudly for a second referendum please?
I'm a remainer and see the obvious problems with remainers asking for a second referendum but if former Brexiters were to ask, it would have legitimacy surely.

{Besides, the French PM has been saying recently that they are pulling out all the stops to ensure that even in the event of no deal the Dover-Calais crossing will be pretty much an open door.}
I believe that actual statement had greater subtlety than what you are suggesting. He was referring to no EXTRA delay deliberately, but was not meaning the statuary 'delay' that will be caused by extra checking and formalities.
Mr Macron held a 'wine and nibbles' event at the Elysee Palace for senior business leaders a month or two back. I doubt it was talking about the weather.
I suspect that across Europe leaders will be saying 'No deal,,,bring it ON'.

I think the fact that there was such a huge Leave vote is what is most important for us long-term whether we stay in the EU or not.

I hardly think just under 52% to just over 48% is huge. It's a bit like Oxford winning the boat race by half a metre. It's a win, but close run. If it was 66%:33% then yes, this would have been a convincing majority.

It reflected how disenfranchised many of our communities feel in Britain. That has not been discussed since the vote and there have been no attempts to address it. It won't go away. It's to do with the Lndon-centric view that exists in the country, the north-south divide, poverty, housing, lack of opportunity, fear, having no voice.

Yes, I have to agree here, and as you say, no one is doing anything much to address the issue. Vanity projects like HS2 will just suck more into London - investing in the cross pennine rail links would be doing far more. Or since Parliament is going to need refurbishment, why not move it to say, Leeds or Manchester?

However, back to Brexit. The government and Opposition are in such a mess I don't know what the way forward is.
Again, few will disagree.

[the EU] is driven by Germany and France and their views.

Perhaps if we had shown more of a commitment, instead of constant whining we might have been more equal players. However, the Single Market was Thatcher's idea. Eastward expansion was promoted by Major.

I have an admiration for the way Teresa May has persisted when no one else has stood beside her or stepped up, but I don't like aspects of her deal.

Many of the problems are of her own making, in hastily drawing her red lines to appease the right wing of the party.

I sort of think there should be a cross-party government at the moment,

Yes, quite a lot of us would like to see that too.

I'll happily include sources in my posts, though it does make for longer posts.

A link when cut and pasting text does not significantly add to the length of a post. Unless of course you want other users to mistakenly believe it’s your own original thoughts?

Well Southampton manages to clear non-EU imports in an average of six seconds. Even a crispy lettuce won't go limp in that time.

The majority of Southampton’s cargo is liquid bulk, a much smaller proportion of containers (which are at sea long enough for electronic customs clearance to be effective) and very little RORO.

Dover deals with RORO, many shipments are mixed loads, there is no space to hold vehicles for checks to take place and no facilities to hold refrigerated goods.

You’re comparing apples and bricks.

I hate the EU as an organisation although I love Europe. It is driven by Germany and France and their views. They treat us like poor neighbours, pay scant attention to us, we have no power there. It is hugely wasteful of money and resources and very inefficient in its workings. It is not accountable to us in anyway. I don't want to be part of an organisation that decides so many important things about our country without listening to us or allowing us options. The way people like Macron and Junckers have behaved in these negotiations has convinced me even more of that.

What a complete load of bollocks. I despair. Why not do some proper research instead of reciting inaccurate nonsense spouted by dodgy social media accounts.

Buteo - all right, you can have the port of Harwich instead, they do lots of RoRo and they average 15 seconds. Oh well, what do they know?

Peregrina Outside of bits of the SE, part of Wales NI and Scotland, almost every other bit of the UK voted Leave. In quite a number of areas that vote was 55-76% of the vote with a high turnout of 70%+ and those people should not be dismissed nor ignored.

It reflects how fragmented our country has become. I live in Northumberland and my cousin- who comes from here but lives in London- finds the reality of our daily life compared with his astonishing. In our street everyone is white British. My child's nursery is all white British, the Primary school it is attached to is 99.something percent white British. In our village I rarely see anyone who is not white British. My cousin is the only white British person on his street. His house backs onto a primary school where the percentage of white British children is 11%. All of the local adverts where he lives -on bus stops and hoardings are in a different language.
My husband is a Headteacher is an area of high deprivation- 98% of his school is white British and 84% of those children live in the 3% most deprived postcodes in the country. He is dealing with families where the poverty is beyond what I thought existed in Britain today. Girls whose parents can not buy sanitary protection. Teenagers without toiletries, uniform, food. We have a friend who is a local magistrate and he says the biggest increase in cases is in white men shoplifting food for their family. You can buy a 3 bedroomed semi where DH's school is for £40,000 or less but they don't sell. The prices don't increase- which is the same in large pockets of the north east, mainly in old industrial areas- ship building, coal, steel which have never recovered from Thatcher's Britain and been entirely neglected since 2010. My cousin lives in a street of grey semis in quite a run down area which are selling for £680,000+. He bought it for £120,000 15 years ago. DH's school is in a volatile area and the police are worried about social unrest.
People are pissed off and no one has taken any notice. I envisage the kind of riots that happened in the 1980s in some parts of the country. I think many people are not knowledgable about the economic detail of Brexit and voted as a protest and with hope for change and a focus on their communities but no one has listened.

But my dear @OutsideInTheGarden , paperwork. You need the right paperwork. Even if your vessel is lined up and ready to unload.

BorisBogtrotter - "Then you lost the argument in one of your first posts, in fact all of your posts are adversarial.
"

By that you mean I don't agree with you? Much like all the shouts of "fascist" at anyone who thinks Trump isn't the actual anti-Christ then.

No your first post came on and called all of the remainers idiots who didn't understand economics ( oh the irony). All of your posts are aggressive in tone too.

@OutsideInTheGarden - harrumphing isn't very adult. I don't call people fascists just because they are on the right. I'm old. My parents were in the war - medals to prove it. I know what a fascist is.

BorisBogtrotter - "Because they were offered other incentives to be here, but they wouldn't have done soley for the UK market. The Japanese themselves have stated that the EU market was the driving factor for setting up here, and its why they are worried about issues with customs."
They must be some massive financial incentives then and if that's the only thing keeping them here then they haven't got a viable business and on the other side of the equation the UK isn't getting a good return on it's money. I really don't see anyone arguing for pouring cash into a money pit merely to prop up a failing business. British Leyland springs to mind when considering this model of carrying on business and look how that worked out.

bellinisurge - "But my dear @OutsideInTheGarden , paperwork. You need the right paperwork. Even if your vessel is lined up and ready to unload."

Oh the horror! Paperwork! We can't cope! Woe is me!

Let me see, so a business that manages all the complexity of designing and manufacturing a complex product such as a motor vehicle is going to literally close down because they might have to do a bit extra paperwork?

Ah Outside you are confusing the reasons for locating here in the first place, with the reasons for staying here following Brexit.

The thing keeping them here is the access to the single market, and the ability to overate JIT systems that it brings them. If this is lost then leaving is a possibility.

What monies does the UK Gov give the Japanese car industry currently?

Going fwd hasn't May said the tax payer will cushion any costs associated with Brexit?

"Oh the horror! Paperwork! "

Says someone who doesn't understand the non tariff barriers caused by country of origin rules.

LulaJakey - I don't disagree with you, I have relatives in the N East who say much the same. I firmly believe that it was a protest vote against austerity, and one which won't be addressed by leaving the EU. Any Remainer who dares to say that has the words Project Fear thrown at them. Back in the 80s I recall that Thatcher wanted to abandon Liverpool but Heseltine wouldn't wear it and set out to find out what it was like there. Where are the Leavers championing the deprived areas? Note how leading Brexiters aren't stepping up to the task though, or making the case for you but instead are rushing to move their money to the EU, or are getting themselves EU passports. Someone pointed out the other day that with Esther McVey's departure the Cabinet has no representation in England of any where further north than Staffordshire, which is in the West Midlands. Although it has to be said, that parts of the West Midlands are equally deprived. They muster 4 from Surrey.

However, the vote was decided on a UK wide basis. Scotland and NI both voted Remain, and in NI's case the number of remain votes shows that this must have crossed sectarian boundaries. The answer to Scotland has been 'tough', to NI there is the recognition that there is an International Treaty to be considered before the Government can get away with saying 'tough'.

BTW even in the leafy south east, we have girls who can't afford sanitary protection. In some ways the extremes can be worse here because great wealth sits cheek by jowl with abject poverty.

Paperwork that slows your business down if you don't get it right. Paperwork that needs customs agents that we don't have enough of in this country.
No thriving business can get away without paperwork. It's as dull and simple as that. If you don't have the right paperwork your dynamic exporting or importing business grinds to a halt.
Tedious, aren't they, details and stuff.

Having actually sat on a container ship from a third country with lovely imports that couldn't get in to the EU because it didn't have the right paperwork, I know how long it can take.

Having had to sort out the export paperwork for a uk based non -EU operating business trying to get something delivered to yet a third country for sale, I know about boring stuff like paperwork. I admit it was a while ago but I fail to see how paperwork- even e-paperwork- is inconsequential.

'Automation' is Outside's cry - but then someone has to design and implement the automated systems.

BorisBogtrotter - "The thing keeping them here is the access to the single market, and the ability to overate JIT systems that it brings them. If this is lost then leaving is a possibility."

As mentioned earlier, the Japanese currently supply the EU market from Canada and Mexico amongst other places. They are moving this production but not to the EU. They are moving it to Japan. So much for easy access to the EU single market.

Japan has just signed a trade deal with the EU. Which we won't have access to. Do you think Japan will give us a better trade deal once it negotiates a deal with us. Little old us. Versus the massive trade bloc next door.

@OutsideInTheGarden
"Which side ". Don't be so fucking insulting. Disgusting.

lulaJakey, when you voted Leave, what did you hope for?
Did you do it to give Cameron a kick in the teeth and hope for an end to austerity? Or what. It's a genuine question. I haven't seen my relatives in the North East since around the time of the 2015 election. At the time they were saying that they wished they could vote for SNP just because they didn't feel represented. I don't know how they voted, in the Referendum, but the SNP statement suggests they were voting for Westminster to be given a 'kick in the teeth'. I don't recall any mention of the EU - it was neglect by Westminster which was their No 1 priority.