Westministenders: Game Over?

[RedToothBrush]

May has a draft deal which she has presented to the Cabinet. Woohooo!

The catch is, it doesn't mention the Irish Border. Just a minor point. This is because she has no way forward on it. There are so many red lines from so many different groups shes tangled up in knots with them.

She wrote a letter to the DUP to tell them to suck it up. Arlene has told her to stick it. And if she hadn't told her to stick it, Scottish Tories would have told her to stick it. David Davis has told her to stick it. Rees-Moog has told her to stick it. And this afternoon, one of the Ministers for Queues at Dover, Jo Johnson, told her to stick it and that we need a people's vote. On top of that, her plans to try and get cross party support and get the Labour Party to support it, have suffered a blow as Momentum voted to tell May to stick it.

In fact it might be harder to think of people who WILL support it.

Not that this is a surprise. We've all be aware of this for some time. Is it finally game over?

The government have at least seemingly realised that this month is the last opportunity they have for a deal. Dominic has also realised that Dover is quite close to France and this is quite a big deal.

The EU pushed back their meeting until the 27th. This coincidentally is the same day there is a decision over a50 at the ECJ and the right to revoke.

If May can't get her act together over the Irish Border, this might yet prove to be the last option open to her, to prevent Brexmaggeddon.

Jo Johnson is not too far from the mark with vassalage or chaos? Take your pick Mrs May.

I have been trying to think of an example in history were a rise in nationalism has worked out well for everybody. I couldn't think of one, is there one?

Depends what you mean by "nationalism" or whether you mean "a desire for self-determination".

Was Malta becoming independent "nationalism"? Or NZ? Australia? Or Iceland from Denmark? Norway from Sweden?

Irredentism can be dangerous (new word I learnt from reading slowly "The Sleepwalkers" about how Europe slept walked into WW1 - as recommended on these threads) - but Scotland isn't proposing that.

We've had much more heated threads. on other subjects

I think the problem was that some posters were having a hate fest about Scotland and the Scots
and MN is sensitive to any whiff of racism atm.

MN might have previously flagged up the OP, if he / she has had other threads deleted for GF, or a lot of posts deleted on other threads

You're a nationalist, a rebel, even a traitor
Then your country becomes independent and you're just a citizen of a foreign country

The other 3 nations are the only significant ones England has left to rule, which matters to the Empire 2.0 mob

Jo Johnson may have borrowed some of the articles Big Brother wrote but couldn't use after he chose Leave

I don't think it helped the Irish were dragged in to the argument as another example of having a victim mentality.
I am actually pretty surprised how little Brexiteers care about the union, I had thought they might be more bothered. I'm not sure if this is because they cannot imagine home nations actually wanting to leave or don't care if they do.

I've posted up about this book before - Internal Colonialism: The Celtic Fringe in British National Development https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0765804751/ref=cmswrcpapi_8mH6BbF79SZ6N - which dh studied as part of his Geography degree in the late 70s.

It explicitly talks about the Celtic "fringe" being all that was left of the "Empire"

It was first published in 1978. Although this is a new edition, incorporating the devolution settlements for the colonies NI, Scotland and Wales, nothing has fundamentally changed

Ireland has actually been a victim of England, then Britain, for 8 centuries

Having a victim mentality is justified when you really are a victim

John Grace being quite serious here:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/12/gordon-brown-on-brexit-a-grownup-among-a-sea-of-idiots

With only David Cameron yet to declare – and frankly, who gives a toss what he thinks? – three of the four living former prime ministers had now called for a second referendum.

I didn't mean the commenter who stated this was right, merely that Mumsnet having had rather a run in on this topic recently probably didn't fancy a rematch. bigchoc When I saw the comments on that I wasn't surprised to see the thread get pulled.

Pithy comment from the Irish Times...

"The Brexiteers prevailed in 2016 by peddling the illusion that the UK could leave the EU while continuing to enjoy all its benefits.

Now they face the reality: a deal that will satisfy nobody and leave everybody worse off. “When the facts change, I change my mind,” said Keynes. In this case, the “facts” never were facts at all. A second referendum would not affront democracy; it would shore it up."

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-a-second-brexit-referendum-when-the-facts-change-1.3695406?mode=amp

Why is May so very, very opposed to a vote on any eventual final plan anyway?

Normally it's party first so is she worried a further vote will further entrench the ERG?

Is it because ( against all the evidence) she still believes she can pull a better deal off?

Is it because she wants a BINO fudge and doesn't want it scrutinising?

Is it because if she backs it she looks weak?

Is it because she really believes the advisory referendum has to be acted upon?

Is it because as she admits that she no longer reads the news, she hasn't actually been briefed on the extent to
which views have changed?

Is she fearful of a UKIP driven anti immigration no deal decision dominating ?

Is it just because she ( rightly) observed the people can't be trusted?

Why is May so very, very opposed to a vote on any eventual final plan anyway?

I think it is mainly because if MPs think they can prevent Brexit by voting her deal down, they will.

This is also why the government is desperate to prevent Jo Maugham's A50 case going to the ECJ.

The only chance of getting her deal through Parliament is making sure that it is the only alternative to no-deal.

I'm sorry the GF Scots AIBU was pulled. I'm not sure how many people in RUK know that the Scottish parliament supports (like grownups) a people's vote, if nothing sensible can be agreed. That is, supporting the country (UK) rather than putting party (SNP have a majority in Scotland) first.

Thinking about it... I guess she doesn't like any form of collegiate activity whether it is involving the cabinet, Parliament, or the people.

So she's opposed to any form of consensus- let alone a people's vote. Then after the ref I guess she can't be blamed for taking that view.

Is it because as she admits that she no longer reads the news, she hasn't actually been briefed on the extent to
which views have changed?

She doesn’t read the news? I missed that. Christ on a bike.
Does she watch the news? Maybe just the BBC? Might explain a fair bit.

More crap in the papers this morning. (Front page only courtesy of SKY online).
It seems unreasonable that after 2 1/2 years the EU would like to see a coherent plan from the UK and are suggesting that the UK looks at the plan they have drawn up. OUTRAGEOUS!!
The other papers lead with some people going to a jungle to eat worms (or whatever) as if anyone gives a damn. Actually recipes using worms and other creatures might be handy 'post Brexit'.
Flourine in the water makes people 'passive', is this the problem, that the UK has been mass 'medicated'?

{Thinking about it... I guess she doesn't like any form of collegiate activity whether it is involving the cabinet, Parliament, or the people.
So she's opposed to any form of consensus- let alone a people's vote. Then after the ref I guess she can't be blamed for taking that view.}

In that case what the hell is she doing as 'Prime Minister' you know, the person who leads and enriches the lives of the WHOLE country (supposedly)?

Singing -it was from early October admittedly in the Sun. It's to protect her from the woes.

Theresa May has stopped reading newspapers in the morning to preserve her “wellbeing”, it has emerged.
The instead now relies on a daily summary from aides at her regular 8.30am meeting in No10 with them.

A senior Downing Street figure told The Sun the decision for Mrs May not to plough through the newsprint is “to protect her from a daily diatribe of woes”.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/7402940/theresa-may-newspapers-donald-trump/

Hmmmm think we'd all like protection from the woes too.

I've seen a lot worse. hmm
Industrial quantities, some might say co ordinated and funded, malarkey going on this week. Especially today.

I posted this on that deleted thread. Humanity knows no borders.
Kudos to Sturgeon

'Who will rid me of this turbulent electorate'?

With only David Cameron yet to declare – and frankly, who gives a toss what he thinks?

Classic!

Terrorist banned from US.

@hopenothate
BREAKING: Stephen Lennon’s fundraising trip to the US is off. Under pressure from our campaign and from MPs of all parties, US authorities haven’t granted him a visa to attend tomorrow’s Washington D.C. event.

BBC journalist on award winning journalist.

@afneil
Nothing compared with having to deal with mad cat woman from Simpson’s, Karol Kodswallop.