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Brexit

Westministenders: Game Over?

988 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2018 16:32

May has a draft deal which she has presented to the Cabinet. Woohooo!

The catch is, it doesn't mention the Irish Border. Just a minor point. This is because she has no way forward on it. There are so many red lines from so many different groups shes tangled up in knots with them.

She wrote a letter to the DUP to tell them to suck it up. Arlene has told her to stick it. And if she hadn't told her to stick it, Scottish Tories would have told her to stick it. David Davis has told her to stick it. Rees-Moog has told her to stick it. And this afternoon, one of the Ministers for Queues at Dover, Jo Johnson, told her to stick it and that we need a people's vote. On top of that, her plans to try and get cross party support and get the Labour Party to support it, have suffered a blow as Momentum voted to tell May to stick it.

In fact it might be harder to think of people who WILL support it.

Not that this is a surprise. We've all be aware of this for some time. Is it finally game over?

The government have at least seemingly realised that this month is the last opportunity they have for a deal. Dominic has also realised that Dover is quite close to France and this is quite a big deal.

The EU pushed back their meeting until the 27th. This coincidentally is the same day there is a decision over a50 at the ECJ and the right to revoke.

If May can't get her act together over the Irish Border, this might yet prove to be the last option open to her, to prevent Brexmaggeddon.

Jo Johnson is not too far from the mark with vassalage or chaos? Take your pick Mrs May.

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Jason118 · 11/11/2018 09:38

Red : Without you're posts and insight I would still have my head (insert appropriate location here). I wouldn't have marched, I wouldn't have been able to articulate the seriousness to my DC who also marched. I wouldn't have been confident enough to debunk the rubbish peddled in my work place. I would be a more shallow, weaker person. Please don't give up.

Talkstotrees · 11/11/2018 09:39

At the first meeting of our local People’s Vote group I suggested that our regional centre should provide a faq list. My concern was that we should be prepared for the kind of questions we’ll be asked and that we should be clear and consistent about the message. This is what was provided:

“Brexit FAQs
Is a People’s Vote not just a rerun of the 2016 EU Referendum?
No, it’s not. The People’s Vote accepts the result of the 2016 referendum despite it’s obvious shortcomings and in accuracies on both sides but, primarily, the Leave side. However, that is history now and both time and events have moved on and the reality of what Brexit will mean both now and in the future becomes clearer with every passing day.

The decision on Brexit is by far the single largest decision facing the UK since World War 2 and will have a major effect on the economy, jobs, public services including the NHS, security, agriculture and virtually every aspect of our lives. As that evidence emerges the People’s Vote believes that the people should be able to consider that evidence and come to a reasoned decision as to whether the Brexit deal is in their and the country’s best interests.

There is both quantified and anecdotal evidence suggesting that public opinion is moving away from Brexit as people see the reality of what it will mean. To claim that to recognise this and allow the people to express their view on it is undemocratic could not be further from the truth. Those who oppose a People’s Vote are the anti democrats for as David Davis, former Secretary for Exiting the EU said, “In a democracy you can change your mind. If you can’t you don’t have a democracy”.

Is it not undemocratic when the “will of the people” has already been established?
The 2016 referendum determined that Britain should set about negotiating the country’s departure from the EU and the People’s Vote campaign respects that decision.
However, the terms on which we leave, and Britain’s future relationship with the EU, were never formulated or put to the public in 2016 and much more information and new facts have come to light about Brexit since then that could never have been known at the time.
We now know that promises made about Brexit, like more £350m a week extra for our NHS and getting a deal with the ‘exact same benefits’, won’t be kept. In fact, if we leave we will have to pay a £40 billion divorce bill in return for a much worse relationship.
The Brexit process is a mess and the negotiations are going badly, which makes it more likely that we will get a bad deal. Given all this, it doesn’t seem right to tell people, as the Government is doing, that the public should just accept without question whatever version of Brexit they come back with. That is what is undemocratic.

How do the Leave campaign’s claims at the time of the referendum stand up to critical examination?
The Leave campaign was based on two main claims. Firstly that we send £350 million to the EU every week to the EU and, secondly, that there were over 8 million Turks waiting to come in to the UK.
The £350 million to the NHS, which is still cited by Boris Johnson, is misleading to say the least, perhaps deliberately so. In fact, the independent UK Statistics Authority wrote to him calling it a “clear misuse of official statistics”. It is misleading because it doesn’t take into account the money we get back from the EU in the form of our UK rebate, or the huge amount we receive in investment in the UK through EU funds.
In 2016 our contribution to the EU budget was £18.9bn. However, we got £5bn of this back in the UK rebate and we also received an additional £5.6bn of EU funds in the form of both public and private investment. The actual net amount we sent to the EU in 2016 was £8.1bn, which worked out at £156m a week. And the reality is that as an EU member state the UK controls more than 98% of its public expenditure.
Not only that our contribution to the EU should be weighed against the wider financial benefits it results in. The Confederation of British Industry estimates that EU membership is worth £3,000 a year to every British family — a return of nearly £10 for each £1 we pay in.
As far as the claim that 8 million Turks were about to come to the UK this was quickly dropped immediately after the referendum and is now totally discredited. Given the current political situation in Turkey, no EU member state wants it to join, meaning it simply cannot happen.
Notwithstanding that there is enlargement fatigue across the EU, and no significant appetite for other countries to join the club. In any case, all existing countries, including the UK, have a veto over whether any other countries should join.

Can Article 50 whereby we have given notice to leave the EU be rescinded or is it a done deal?
Not being able to rescind Article 50 is a myth peddled by the Government to give the impression that we could not change our minds and is completey untrue. The architect of Article 50, the British peer Lord Kerr, is clear that revoking the notification to leave the EU is entirely up to us.
And key European leaders have said that we can change our minds:
• Emmanuel Macron, President of France, said in January: “I do respect this vote, I do regret this vote, and I would love to welcome you again.”
• Donald Tusk, European Council president, said in January that Europeans’ “hearts are still open” to “our British friends” to remain in the EU.
• Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president, told MEPs in January: “If the British people, the British parliament, the British government, wish for another way than Brexit, we would be prepared to discuss it. We are not throwing out the British, we want them to stay.”
• Antonio Tajani, President of the European Parliament says: “If the UK wanted to stay, everybody would be in favour. I would be very happy.”
• Leo Varadkar, Irish Taoiseach says: “The door remains open for the UK to stay in the European Union.”

Is there enough time to hold a People’s Vote before we leave the EU?
It depends when Parliament passes the legislation. It would of course make sense to do this sooner rather than later, and that is what we are campaigning for.
But if necessary, Article 50 could be extended to allow for more time to ensure a People’s Vote could take place. This is perfectly possible. A request would need to be made by the Government and agreed by the EU27. All the indications from Europe are that an extension of Article 50 to allow us more time to go through our domestic democratic processes and legislate for and hold a People’s Vote would be looked upon favourably.

To what extent can we control immigration if we stay in the EU?
Yes we can. And there are many more things we could have done and can continue to do under EU law.
First, we could apply the existing rules that the Government currently chooses not to. For example, EU nationals who have been unable to find a job after six months could be expelled, as they are in Belgium and several other EU countries. We could also require EU nationals coming here to register. Both of these elements which are permissible under EU law the Government, including Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, has chosen not to do!
There is nothing in EU law giving recent migrants without a job the right to things like housing benefit or income support. The UK could move more benefits into this category. The UK could also reintroduce the Migration Impacts Fund, which was scrapped in 2010, to channel more resources to parts of the country which have experienced high levels of immigration.
Recent reform of the Posted Workers Directive, to prevent workers posted to other EU countries from undercutting local wages, show there is a big appetite for reform. We could be working with like-minded countries to push for further reform from inside the EU.

What effect has EU migration had on UK wages and public services?
Wages have been stagnating – but that is because of Brexit, and the legacy of the 2008 global financial crisis. There is very little evidence to support the argument immigration dramatically affects the wages and job prospects of UK-born workers.
EU immigrants pay more in taxes than they take out in welfare and the use of public services, and their consumption of goods and services increases demand and thereby helps to create more employment opportunities.1
Brexiters often cite a 2015 study by the Bank of England as proof that EU migration exerts downward pressure on wages. But the author of the report has recently clarified that the negative impact is “infinitesimally small” and that his findings have been widely misrepresented.
As a study from the well-respected London School of Economics has shown, immigrants come here and buy our products and our services – good for our economy and good for our growth. .

What is the impact of EU immigration on the UK’s economy?
EU migrants pay more in taxes than they take out in welfare and use of public services to the tune of £1.34 paid in for every £1.00 taken out compared to 98p paid in by non EU immigrants for every £1.00 taken out. Non EU immigration is already increasing whilst that from the EU is decreasing meaning that the financial pressures on the exchequer are increasing not declining.

What influence does the UK have as a member of the EU with regards to new countries joining?
Any ‘European’ country who fulfils the EU criteria of membership can apply to join the EU. Membership criteria are known as the Copenhagen criteria. These include ‘a free-market economy, a stable democracy and the rule of law, and the acceptance of all EU legislation.

A country wishing to join the EU submits a membership application to the European Council, which asks the European Commission to assess whether the applicant can meet the Copenhagen criteria. If the Commission thinks so, the European Council agrees on a framework for negotiations with the candidate country. Membership negotiations cannot start until all EU governments agree. Therefore the UK has the absolute right to oppose the joining of a new country if it so wishes.

Does being in the EU restrict our ability to enter into trade deals with the rest of the world?
If we quit the EU and don’t negotiate any special deal with our former partners, we would have to rely on our WTO membership to secure access to the single market. Advocates of this approach often argue that the EU is growing much less rapidly than other parts of the world – such as the “Brics” (Brazil, Russia, India and China). They also say that being in the EU makes it harder for us to trade with these markets because we have shut off their imports behind the EU’s tariff barriers. That artificially diverts our trade into the EU and away from other countries. A variation on the theme is that, if we quit the EU, we would regain a glorious period of trade with Commonwealth nations, many of which are now growing rapidly.

There is much that is wrong or muddled in these arguments. For a start, EU membership hasn’t artificially diverted much trade away from other countries: the Treasury has estimated it diverted only 4% of our trade with non-EU countries. What’s more, the EU’s trade-weighted tariff barrier is 1%. It could and should be lower. But, in most industries, tariffs are no longer the main obstacle to trade.

EU membership does not prevent us trading with other countries. It certainly doesn’t stop Germany. Its exports to China are three times as large as ours. And even though some Brics are growing faster than the EU, that’s hardly a good reason to jettison a market that is responsible for 44% of our exports and more than half of our imports. UK sales to the Brics were only 7.2% of our total exports in 2014. Even if we tripled those, that would make up for the loss of less than a third of our EU exports. What’s more, two of the Brics (Brazil and Russia) are struggling economically while all of them are hard to make money in because of corruption. The sensible strategy is not an either/or one but to trade with both the EU and the rest of the world.

It’s not even clear that a Britain outside the EU would be more open to trade with the rest of the world than it is today. True, some eurosceptic free-marketeers would want us to throw open our markets to all-comers. But many companies would argue that they would then be facing unfair competition and that we should only open our markets if others opened theirs. They might even press for barriers to be raised. Meanwhile, those dreaming that we could somehow reconstruct the trading patterns of the British Empire via the Commonwealth are being romantic. Of course, we should boost trade with Australia, Nigeria, New Zealand, Pakistan, Canada, Bangladesh and so forth. But they do not form a single trading bloc. They all have their own strategies based on maximising trade, often in their back yard. They wouldn’t just open their arms and give us priority because we have quit the EU especially as our colonial heritage may be of mixed benefit in some of the former Empire countries.” continued

Talkstotrees · 11/11/2018 09:44

“To what extent does the EU depend trade wise on the UK as opposed to the other way around?
Brexiters have repeatedly claimed that Brussels would be falling over itself to do a trade deal with us since ‘EU countries sell us more than we sell them’. This is simply not true. A far bigger share of our trade is with the EU than vice versa and, while everyone will suffer from lower trade as a result of Brexit, we will be worst hit.
According to the latest statistics, in 2017, our exports to the EU accounted for 45% of all our exports and we imported 54% of all our imports from the EU over the same time-period. By contrast, exports from the EU to the UK account for about 16% of all their exports and their imports from us account for only about 3-4% of all their imports.
We are clearly much more exposed and will take a much bigger hit than they will. It is clear that we need them more than they need us.

To what extent is the EU run by an unelected bureaucratic elite?
This claim mainly refers to the EU Commission: the EU’s executive body. It is true that the Commission President and the individual Commissioners are not directly elected by the peoples of Europe. So, in that sense, we cannot “throw the scoundrels out”. It is also true that under the provisions of the EU treaty, the Commission has the sole right to propose EU legislation, which, if passed, is then binding on all the EU member states and the citizens of these member states. But, that’s not the end of the story.

First, the Commission’s power to propose legislation is much weaker than it at first seems. The Commission can only propose laws in those areas where the EU governments have unanimously agreed to allow it to do under the EU treaty. Put another way, the Commission can only propose EU laws in areas where the UK government and the House of Commons has allowed it to do so.

Also, ‘proposing’ is not the same as ‘deciding’. A Commission proposal only becomes law if it is approved by both a qualified-majority in the EU Council (unanimity in many sensitive areas) and a simple majority in the European Parliament. In practice this means that after the amendments adopted by the governments and the MEPs, of which there are 73 from the UK, the legislation usually looks very different to what the Commission originally proposed. In this sense, the Commission is much weaker than it was in the 1980s, when it was harder to amend its proposals in the Council and when the European Parliament did not have amendment and veto power. So, it is easy to claim that the EU is run by ‘unelected bureaucrats’, but the reality is quite a long way from that.

What impact does being a member of the EU have on our sovereignty?
The EU's powers to make and enforce laws have a bearing on the UK's sovereignty.When we speak of the sovereignty of Parliament, we mean the right of the House of Commons and the House of Lords - with the formal approval of the monarch - to make any laws Parliament may choose. Parliament can be said to have given up some of its sovereignty when it passed the European Communities Act 1972, enabling the UK to join what was then the European Economic Community, at the beginning of 1973, and requiring courts in the UK to apply EU law.
Those who want to leave the EU say the only sovereignty that matters is the ability to make all our laws in the UK. So if that's what sovereignty means, it's difficult to see how it can be achieved while the UK remains part of the EU. However, just to keep things in perspective the vast majority of UK law, 98%, has been made by the UK itself.”

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 11/11/2018 09:54

Thanks again red, I'll pop over onto that though its quite a dragging down tale!

Also, I agree with everyone on here. Without these posts I don't know what I'd have done. I am so much better informed about things in general, I've marched, I've joined a local party, I even ran for council last year never ever had a hope in hell of getting in but I did it. Your post about the people's vote march not really being about its stated aim, that's the argument I used to get a few more local people out there - Its pressure and a show of disapproval of how things are going even if a vote is not going to happen or solve anything right now.

That's all down to you and everyone else here. Thank you all.

prettybird · 11/11/2018 09:55

I too have stopped wearing the poppy for similar reasons to PPs. It has become a formulaic obligation - as evidenced by the way that the BBC obviously has its own stock of poppies distributed around the world to thrust onto anyone they interview Hmm - rather than a genuine act of remembrance Sad

The point about Remembrance Day/Sunday is not just that we should remember but that we should must learn Sad

....and don't get me started on the "celebrations" 4 years ago about the start of WW1 Angry which coincidentally were just before the Infyref Hmm

There is a beautiful song that Benjamin Luxon sang called "Something Else Again". It's about seeing the gravestones for the war to end all wars - yet it has happened "again and again". The emotion and bitterness with which he sings that is heartbreaking. SadAngry

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 11/11/2018 10:15

Strangely, I have never felt pressured to wear a poppy. Actually, quite the opposite. This is the first time I’ve worn one in some years. Working in a liberal/left leaning, creative industry for many years I saw things change from the early 90s, when there would be a collection box and tray of poppies on reception each November, to more recent years when if you wore one people reacted as if they’d spotted HATE tattooed across your knuckles. It made me sad. DF was much older than most of my friend’s parents and served in WWII, as did my maternal GF.

Dad always taught me that the poppy was a symbol of rememberance, for those who fought and died on all sides, not a celebration of war and I’m old enough to remember when many of the poppy sellers where ancient men with rows of ribbons, often from both World Wars. I hate that it’s now seen as a symbol of warmongering and fascism. I do wish the white poppies were more readily available.

Paternal GF and his and paternal GM’s brother served in WWI. Like Ohlook one of my great uncles was injured and didn’t want to go back. He was the baby of the family and had lied about age to join up. His family didn’t turn on him and they did try to prevent him from returning but by then he was of age (just) and there was nothing they good do. DF used to talk about his DM’s sorrow and how she never forgot her baby brother crying in fear when he was sent back to the front. He was killed soon after.

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2018 10:19

Thanks again red, I'll pop over onto that though its quite a dragging down tale!

Please don't let that put you off. I find it fascinating. WW1 is a particular part of my family history I've been interested in, so I find stories so interesting and worthwhile to read.

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prettybird · 11/11/2018 10:21

The Benjamin Luxon song isn't called "Something Else Again" (that might have been the album it was on that my parents had). It was called "The Green Fields of France" or "Willy McBride". It's been covered by many other people - but I love the richness and passion in his voice as he sings it.

Listening to it again has brought tears to my eyes SadAngry

It's at 7.48 on this YouTube clip

borntobequiet · 11/11/2018 10:23

Talks, thanks for the very useful summary posts.

Quietrebel · 11/11/2018 10:33

On the subject of the Armistice event in Paris, I find it quite sad that Britain is not represented. Only the flag is there but no one else. How can this ceremony take place without any Brits attending??

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2018 10:42

I think there is some political stuff about Germany attending and us being ridiculous about it.

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prettybird · 11/11/2018 10:45

I found the news reports yesterday of Merkel and Macron in the train carriage and then at the memorial very moving.

It was an illustration of what the EU is all about. It is not just about trade. It is about peace. It is about working together to make sure that such wars don't happen again.

That is its best and biggest legacy.

Peace. Flowers

Quietrebel · 11/11/2018 10:45

That would be utterly pathetic if that was the case.
Merkel and Trump are standing next to Macron. May should be where Merkel is right now. This is a global celebration of peace. How on earth can any political pettiness top that?!

Quietrebel · 11/11/2018 10:48

I had ancestors on both sides at Verdun. Miraculously escaped unscathed (physically speaking). I never fail to be moved by such symbols of reconciliation.

jasjas1973 · 11/11/2018 10:52

We all need to remember that Britain won WW1 and WW2 all on their own, to in anyway acknowledge the tiny weeny contributions made by other nations or Germany's rehabilitation would be a gross betrayal of all we stand for.
...and what would the 'Mail say?

ElenadeClermont · 11/11/2018 10:59

I only wear poppies to make ILs happy. I love them dearly. I was brought up on the Catholic tradition of remembering All Souls, not just men who died in a war.

My paternal GF and his brothers all fought for Austria-Hungary against Italy in WW1. GF spent his entire life reading about WW1 (mainly its absurdity - The Brave Soldier by Hasek), hating right-wing warmongers and priests, and loving Verdi. They played the Choir of the Hebrew Slaves from Verdi's Nabucco at the war burials, so that is our family burial song.

ElenadeClermont · 11/11/2018 11:01

I loved Merkel and Macron embracing very moving, too prettybird.

Elliesphone · 11/11/2018 11:04

I am Shock about the fact that the UK did not send a representative to Paris. Even Donnie is there. What does this mean politically?

Quietrebel · 11/11/2018 11:11

Just that May's 'global Britain' is conspicuous by its absence.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 11/11/2018 11:13

That would be utterly pathetic if that was the case.

Not just pathetic but shameful too. Our government is an embarrassment. I don’t want anyone under the illusion they represent me. I’m starting to feel as though I need to permanently wear a badge that says ‘I’m so sorry. I didn’t choose to be British.’

Quietrebel · 11/11/2018 11:14

Well I've just chosen to be one and today really bothers me.

missclimpson · 11/11/2018 11:15

The German President has just laid a wreath at the Cenotaph.

Peregrina · 11/11/2018 11:15

I am [shocked] about the fact that the UK did not send a representative to Paris. Even Donnie is there. What does this mean politically?

I didn't know this, but I think it's inexcusable, especially given that May has been parading around the war grave cemeteries in Belgium.

Still, it's par for the course for her - she makes a big show of being a vicar's daughter and going to church, but this doesn't appear to translate into practice. Jesus's warnings to the Scribes and Pharisees always come to mind when I think of her.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 11/11/2018 11:28

I never fail to be moved by such symbols of reconciliation.

Me too, Quietrebel. I remember years ago, when there were still survivors from WWI there were countless stories on TV and other media where soldiers who had fought on both sides at the same battle would meet. They invariably greeted each other warmly as brothers. Now our pathetic excuse for a government won’t even send a representative to Paris. I’m stunned. Those old soldiers would be spinning in their graves.

1tisILeClerc · 11/11/2018 11:29

{We all need to remember that Britain won WW1 and WW2 all on their own, to in anyway acknowledge the tiny weeny contributions made by other nations or Germany's rehabilitation would be a gross betrayal of all we stand for.}
I truly hope you are saying this in an ironic sort of way. Britain participated, with an advantage that like America it was not occupied by 'the enemy'.
Those in mainland Europe, every man woman and child were under occupation and any 'resistance' meant death, not necessarily to the individual, but known family and friends as 'retribution'. A totally different experience to the UK. DGR put up links to instances in Italy (?) where because one or two killed a couple of German soldiers, the whole village was torched with women and children burned alive in the church.
The absence of British in the French commemorations and presumably the following peace conference this afternoon is curious.

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