Westministenders: Game Over?

[RedToothBrush]

May has a draft deal which she has presented to the Cabinet. Woohooo!

The catch is, it doesn't mention the Irish Border. Just a minor point. This is because she has no way forward on it. There are so many red lines from so many different groups shes tangled up in knots with them.

She wrote a letter to the DUP to tell them to suck it up. Arlene has told her to stick it. And if she hadn't told her to stick it, Scottish Tories would have told her to stick it. David Davis has told her to stick it. Rees-Moog has told her to stick it. And this afternoon, one of the Ministers for Queues at Dover, Jo Johnson, told her to stick it and that we need a people's vote. On top of that, her plans to try and get cross party support and get the Labour Party to support it, have suffered a blow as Momentum voted to tell May to stick it.

In fact it might be harder to think of people who WILL support it.

Not that this is a surprise. We've all be aware of this for some time. Is it finally game over?

The government have at least seemingly realised that this month is the last opportunity they have for a deal. Dominic has also realised that Dover is quite close to France and this is quite a big deal.

The EU pushed back their meeting until the 27th. This coincidentally is the same day there is a decision over a50 at the ECJ and the right to revoke.

If May can't get her act together over the Irish Border, this might yet prove to be the last option open to her, to prevent Brexmaggeddon.

Jo Johnson is not too far from the mark with vassalage or chaos? Take your pick Mrs May.

While I have huge globs of big concern, a tiny bit of me is wondering how well I can hold it together for my DD's sake and not rant in front of her about what fucking idiots Leave voters are. Most of my family and Dh's were Remain. A couple were for Leave. Most of the people where we live including DD's friends's parents at her primary were Leave.
She's now at secondary and all I can do is assume the kids are mostly from Leave households. I want her to not repeat something from home that gets her into trouble with new classmates.
She said last night she doesn't care about Leave or Remain, it's all the same. I normally try and engage her in age appropriate debate about stuff because I think it's a good idea for her to look at different points of view.
I did my best to hold my tongue and mumbled something about how boring economics can be and it's more for grown ups, most of whom find it boring too.
She knows about our stash of food - we joke about it.
I wonder how she'll talk about it when she's older.

MyBrexit I weas baffled by that thread
WTF are MN thinking, getting into bed with Babylon ?

We criticise Trump all the time here but when we were in the US (we have a lot of US family) we were really careful. Some good friends of a relative voted Trump - nice people who really come through for said relative whenever they have a problem. So we were careful not to talk politics in front of them.

{I've been treating myself to things like perfume and silly things as I know after Xmas that'll be it.}
Unfortunately this is helping the government keep up with some of the lies. You are 'boosting the economy' by purchasing and stockpiling now, which looks great on the gov books. It is also a sensible move for you personally and the idea of getting things now that you planned to get later next year anyway is a decent way to 'bet' against what is likely to be a massive balls up.
It will of course hasten the decline in trade after Brexit as having bought now, you won't be wanting things for several years (thinking washing machines, fridges etc).

bellini I understood at age 11 that some things I knew from Mum were never repeated, e.g. that we were sofa-surfing, skint, no phone etc

If things get tough, I'm worried many DC in Leave areas may grow up blaming Remain

Remain is status quo; Leave will be responsible for any coming shitshow

What we need now is for those businesses, like the road hauliers, who signed up to the non-disclosures to break confidence and spell out what they know.

There will be nothing the Government can do to gag them, if they all break rank together.

If you want to understand more about how this will affect road hauliers, look on Three Blokes in aPub on YouTube. Particularly the ones with Ciaran on. He's not on all of them because he is working. He runs a white van courier business across Europe and knows all about going into and out or the EU from non- EU bordering nations. What with doing it for a job every day for years. It's horrifying.

{WTF are MN thinking, getting into bed with Babylon ?}
MN is a commercial operation to make money for its founders and employees. They are not a philanthropic team of well wishers doing this for nothing. This may well see me banned (again!).
The only gov department working really well is the department for 'spin', thus Mrsr8's shopping and those that are stockpiling (jolly sensible move) are providing 'evidence' that the UK is doing brilliantly and as we have seen, far too many accept these 'statistics' at face value and now work out that come March 30th many will switch their buying to essentials such as food and fuel.

I feel sorry for your keyboard RTB the frustration you (and most of us on here) feel is coming out loudly.

I'm glad it's coming across. It's why I've not been on here so much of late. I'm angry.

I am currently finding a lot of twitter comments from the remain side as bad and away with the fairies as the leave side. Too many criticisms of leavers can more definitely be levelled at Remainers because they too have been sucked into a state of not wanting to believe the reality of our predicament and have a rather arrogant sense of the UK being 'too big to fail'.

Today is Remembrance Sunday. People have forgotten. What we do remember as a nation is rather distorted. What we've lost is the little details; it wasn't evil people but ordinary people, it was a slow dehumanising, it was an othering, it was leadership failures on an epic scale, it was upper class arrogance, it was a total lack of valuing of the lives of those who weren't wealthy, it was national superiority.

And all people can do is complain about how people aren't wearing a poppy on TV or prattle on about how the poppy is a sign of fascism. It's bollocks.

It's more important to understand the history of the poppy (both red and white) than to indulge in shallow symbolism.

I've decided this morning that's why I'm not going to wear a poppy this year. I'm sick of slogans and symbols and believe we need far more. I don't need to prove to anyone else whether I remember or not. I've researched and written up my two great grandfather's WWI experiences at great length.

I guess I give up, in many senses, there seems little that can be done to make sure people aren't completely missing the point. If they don't want to believe, they won't.

Sorry, ( and now work out) should be not work out. Time for coffee I think!

A belated thank you for the thread red

Where ARE all the leavers??

Maybe a lot of them, especially if they are paid trolls, think their job here is done?

Delurking to say please don't give up, RTB. Educating people about what is happening is a very useful and important thing to do- I am out there talking to those I know about the possibility and need for a second referendum and do take a lot of my talking points from these threads. I'm sure many others do, too.

I too won't be wearing a poppy today, mainly as I have not seen any in my travels over the last week as I am in France.
In many ways I don't need a poppy as a reminder. One route for me into town takes me past a cemetery with 809 guys from around the world who didn't go home. My village square is named after the date when a Scottish platoon removed the Germans in WW2. In a way this might be a bit revealing of where I am, but importantly it is a similar situation to so many villages across Northern France, Belgium and beyond.

I’ve not worn a poppy for the last three years or so because of the bullying of some in the public view who didn’t wear them for weeks beforehand. Prior to that I wore one but only on the 11th.
It’s now a sentimentalised jingoistic celebration of nationalism and war. Even my Dad - who was in active service as a doctor in the Navy for the duration of WW2 - thought it was going that way in the 1990s.

I too have stopped wearing a poppy Red, for much the same reasons.

By the same token I get fed up with having to 'remember' both on 11th November and Remembrance Sunday itself. The commemoration to the nearest Sunday was I believe established during the 1920s, and it only seems to be in the last 20 years or so that we have had to 'remember' both days. Which doesn't sound like Remembrance to me - it rather seemed to go along with Blair's enthusiasm for going into War, and Tory party patriotism.

Growing up in the 1950s we used to visit grandparents in Sheffield, where they fired a gun from the Town Hall at 11am. People stopped in the streets - yes, they were people who had fought, or had been through the war and experienced it first hand, so it meant something.

A really interesting article from Salon in the wake of the Tea Party, Trump and the recent mid terms.

www.salon.com/2018/11/10/making-sense-of-missouri-after-the-midterms/?fbclid=IwAR2ndkVuJcbmXfH-pDHhyzPBlDZZwZm-onWCqD0YqcW8X22_MxPJYK0M8-M#.W-eIWapnI7I.facebook

...After Tuesday’s election, Missouri will have two Republican Senators and six Republicans in the House. There are two Democrats from Missouri in the House, one from Kansas City, and the other from St. Louis. Rural Southeast Missouri, where we flew through, is solidly red.

That trip in 1985 wasn’t the first time my friend David and I had been to Southeast Missouri to go canoeing and fishing. About ten years previously, we had driven there from his home in Illinois to canoe on another scenic waterway, the Black River. We stayed in a cabin owned by a friend of ours from St. Louis. One night, we drove over to a nearby drive-in to take in a double feature.

Here’s what we watched. The first movie was about some scantily-clad female moonshiners fighting a corrupt local sheriff so they could keep making ‘shine, and the second was about some really scary guys from some northern big city who arrived in a small town in the south and terrorized the locals. The scary guys from the city were black. The locals were white.

At the time we were watching those movies, Missouri had two Democrats in the Senate and nine Democrats in the House, and one Republican.

Years later, when I moved to Hollywood, I learned there was a whole industry of filmmaking in L.A. devoted to the small town drive-in and local grindhouse circuit. There were a couple of studios that would mock-up a bunch of movie posters with sample movie titles and presumed “stars” as depicted by graphic artists and drive them around the rural Midwest and South and put them up outside movie theaters and drive-ins. Then they’d check in with the local theater owners and see which movie posters got the most attention. Then they would assign scripts to fit the titles and shoot the movies on very low budgets with C and D level “stars.” Then they would distribute the movies and rake in the bucks. They were called “exploitation movies.” What was being exploited in the movies at that rural Missouri drive-in was class and racial attitudes. For profit.

Let me tell you who was making those movies. Hollywood liberals.

Borntobequiet says it so much better than my rambling post.

I gave up wearing a poppy a few years ago, but this year I'm wearing it alongside a white peace poppy. I had a great uncle who was in the first wave of soldiers to go out to WW1, he got injured somehow which returned him home for a short while but after he tried to abscond as he did not want to go back there. He was rounded on by family and essentially forced back. He died within days in the Battle of the Somme. He was always described as an horrific coward by my family. This year I felt the need to commemorate him, but not by red poppy alone. Actual peace would be a far fitting tribute to a brave man who saw some of the worst human kind could do to each other in the name of so called peace creation. There are many stories like his that never get told as it goes against the grain.

I guess I give up, in many senses, there seems little that can be done to make sure people aren't completely missing the point. If they don't want to believe, they won't.

Never, ever give up. You have already done so much more than many.

It's that " The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good (wo)men to do nothing"

I can't wear a poppy either. I can't stand the bullying associated with it and I can't help but think of all those who are victims of war who are forgotten because they are not deemed to be 'heroes'.

I'll be attending a service later this morning, I'll remember all those who have fallen, but also, those who were too scared to fight.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3420403-Remembrance-Sunday-100-Years

I've started a thread in chat about rememberance Sunday asking for people to share family stories if anyone would like to contribute.

x-post OhLook!

www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/1110/1009979-brexit-analysis/

A really long read from Tony Connelly of RTE. Analysis of all the shenanigans surrounding the backstop.