People’s Vote Delusion

[PersonaNonGarter]

It isn’t going to happen. For the following reasons:

1. May Government won’t vote for a second referendum
2. No new post-May Tory Government will vote for a second referendum
3. Jeremy Corbyn and those in the Labour Party front benches won’t vote for a second referendum
4. There is no agreement about what the referendum would ask.
5. There is no plausible timetable for a referendum.

Why would Corbyn want a second referendum? He is a Leaver wanting to win in Leave seats. And he wants to implement his domestic agenda, not waste any further time on Brexit votes. The current situation SUITS him.

I don't have immediate family who are dependent on medication as it happens, but yes, what would be wrong with feeling angry about the situation? I am amazed that more Leavers aren't up in arms about this. This isn't what they were promised. The only positive statement was more money for the NHS - not get ready to try to stockpile medicines. The energy from anger can be harnessed to good use - why aren't you taking Gove and Johnson to task for this? They are in a position to do something about it.

But goody goody, in 50 years time things will be better. I am 100% sure I will be dead then.

You might have thought during the referendum campaign that the Brexiteers had years, decades even, to put together their alternative vision and persuade the public they knew what they were talking about. We could keep the same benefits, the EU would be desperate for a good deal with us, we’d save money, there would be a solution for Northern Ireland and we could trade with the world.

But it turns out that this was all Bollox!

Two years after the referendum and there is still no workable plan.

So this stupid nightmare has to end with a vote where those same people have to face the people and admit that they fled the scene - they hadn’t thought it through, and they still have NO answers. And then people have the option to vote on the reality of two years on rather than the fantasy that was peddled in 2016. And THAT is democracy.

Perigrina, are you confusing Leave with ‘right wing’? They seem to be conflated in your broad ‘othering’ of people.

David Cameron (right wing) lead the remain campaign. Jeremy Corbyn (left wing) is a eurosceptic.

This situation and arguments are nuanced (ok, not on this thread or social media in general - but irl).

I consider that Leave won. But I have no idea what that is to do with ‘recent nastiness’ - except where paranoia and moral cognitive dissonance have started to convince people like you that 2 + 2 = They Are the Baddies.

And so, strident posters, I consider you part of the problem. You don’t consider yourself part of the problem, of course. You are all right. They, the Other Group, are all wrong. They deserve it, the thick Others.

No, I am not confusing Leave with right wing. But Saturday's march was noticeable for the absence of Corbyn, and the Socialist Workers party. I saw some Tories for Remain go past. I don't know if Dominic Grieve was one of the group I saw, although I gather he was present.

I can see that you are trying to put words into my mouth. Why aren't you angry with the Leave Campaigners? Why haven't they put up to deliver the Brexit that you want?

I live in a Leave area. I think these poor people are in for a horrible shock quite soon.

Dadaist has it right. Where is the plan for all this?

There ISN'T one. omfg.

Peregrina - just a quick search eh? I would put money on the fact that you have those saved up along with your little black book that you confessed to keeping that has the name of MN leavers in it. I could do likewise from the other perspective but life’s too short (and I think it’s a bit weird).

Regarding whether all Leavers are 'thick xenophobes' - I never believed this, and for the most part still don't. I think they were lied to. However, the truth has come out. The reason I don't respect them is that they are all now doubling down on their decision just to save face. We know it's going to be bad. They either assure us it isn't, because we don't have a crystal ball (but they do???) or tell us to get over it because we lost. If Brexiters, at this stage, are still doubling down, wanting no deal, wanting it to be over and done with... they don't care about us, or Northern Ireland, or a hundred other things that Brexit will fuck up. They won't admit to being wrong, ever. If they ever admit that things are worse after Brexit, they will blame the EU, or blame remainers for not 'pulling together.'

No, couple of words in advanced search and press the button. I don't have a little black book either - that's a film, although I noted a few prominent names. One or two prominent leaver names of course, come round and round again, usually to say ' you lost... ' But how come you remember that, unless you too have kept a record?

Why aren't you angry with Gove, Johnson who are still in Parliament? I agree it would be a waste of time being angry now with Gisela Stuart, because she did a Cameron i.e. ran away at the first opportunity.

Agree with katzensocken. I can't even say ' not all leavers are xenophobes but all xenophobes voted leave' because I know one real life xenophobe who voted Remain. Who would still vote Remain.

While everyone who voted remain is shouting at anyone who voted leave, don't you think we should be really be thinking about the voters who voted this shitshow of a government back in for another term after the referendum? We can't change the result but the whole country had the chance to make a better choice of who negotiated the leaving process for the country at the last election. Instead they voted the same bunch of idiots back in who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. If the election had gone any other way, be it Labour or a hung parliament between Labour & Liberals we might not be heading for the mess we are going to be in soon.

No. I don't blame the Tories more than anyone who voted Leave. And I was a solid Labour supporter until Corbyn. I'm old. I've seen governments come and go. I remember the other referendum.
Brexit is for ever. Even Thatcher wasn't forever.
I find this victim narrative that Leave supporters on here are trying to create pretty pathetic. We will all suffer economically. Why should I embrace you for causing that.

Two thirds of Labour voters voted to remain, as did almost all greens, and both Scotland and NI.

Most Tories, OTOH, voted leave.

Leave is not a left wing project, despite what Corbyn thinks, despite the desperate post-march spinning by people alarmed at turnout on Saturday. Brexit is a project driven by older, wealthier people in England.

While everyone who voted remain is shouting at anyone who voted leave, don't you think we should be really be thinking about the voters who voted this shitshow of a government back in for another term after the referendum?

Indeed @Nat6999 . But most Tory voters, voted leave.

Whereas Labour voters voted to remain.

While there is a narrative of a Britain no longer split down party lines and while it is true to a certain extent (business owners are mostly lining up with the centre and the left on the brexit issue) it is still true to say that the conditions for Brexit were created by Tories, Tory voters voted for it, and a Tory government is implementing it.

If Labour was competent it'd be at least 10 points in the lead right now.

It’s like they believe people who voted the other way to them are beneath them.
Persona you are creating your own narrative here. Most remainers I know are angry at leavers because they voted to take away their rights and strip them of their EU citizenship. I can't think of any other vote or referendum that has done this.

If we're going to blame The Tories, we should blame Corbyn as well. If had really wanted to fight for Remain he would've sucked it up and shared a platform with Cameron to say "I know this bloke is a tosser and I really hate the Tories but this is too big and important. I'll fight these bastards and sort out your problems when Labour gets back in. Don't vote Leave . It's a disaster capitalist's wet dream".
But he sort of mumbled "voteremain" and left the heavy lifting to people he didn't like.

I don't think Leave voters are beneath me. I think they got conned and I didn't.

Yes this is exactly what Labour, LibDems and Greens should have said together..

"I know [Cameron] is a tosser and I really hate the Tories but this is too big and important. I'll fight these bastards and sort out your problems when [we] gets back in. Don't vote Leave . It's a disaster capitalist's wet dream"

There are so many examples of othering on this thread. And very few self-aware ‘perhaps the rhetoric towards another group is part of the problem’.

It is like you extreme Remainers and Leavers cannot cope with attributing intelligence and nuance to people who came to different conclusions to yourselves. They were conned, but you know the Truth. They are thick, you are right to despise them. Look what they have done/are doing etc.

Yep, I agree. All politicians (especially Labour) could/should have made this about the referendum rather than another chance to slag each other off.

@PersonaNonGarter , not sure that saying "we're all in this together " works whenone just under half who actually voted were dragged kicking and screaming into it .
Blaming Remain voters for being angry at the stupid path we are heading down is minimising the damage.

I get to decide when I stop blaming people who did this to my family, not you or anyone else. No, I don't like thinking this way but I'm not going to say it's ok when it isn't.

Thing is though Persona, as with many things on MN and I assume other internet forums too, these threads discuss and amplify the extreme views. Post anything middling or reasonable and you get ignored, and equally post anything asking for reassurance or understanding you get ignored. The views of many on either side get lost, which is why the scale of the march at the weekend is significant. I imagine a lot of those there were the quiet masses unhappy with the way politics is being carried on at the moment (the same sort of masses not being heard before the referendum). The ones with the rude banners will be the ones noticed though.

OP I’m not sure what your agenda is here other than to stir the pot.

The fact is Remainers are angry.

The only thing that will change that is seeing the benefits of Leaving.

But there aren’t any.

Leavers cannot name a single, tangible benefit that required leaving the EU to achieve or that is possible in practice.

So why the fuck shouldn’t we continue to be angry because of what your decision will lead to.

We know we will be in a worse position outside the EU than in it, it’s just a case of waiting to see exactly how much worse now.

Why would you ever expect anyone who didn’t chose this to not be angry?

Being angry doesn't make you an extremist. For. Feck's. Sake.

Happy to be proved wrong. Really really really really really want to be wrong. That's the difference. Remainers want to be wrong. Leavers can't admit they might be.