People’s Vote Delusion

[PersonaNonGarter]

It isn’t going to happen. For the following reasons:

1. May Government won’t vote for a second referendum
2. No new post-May Tory Government will vote for a second referendum
3. Jeremy Corbyn and those in the Labour Party front benches won’t vote for a second referendum
4. There is no agreement about what the referendum would ask.
5. There is no plausible timetable for a referendum.

Why would Corbyn want a second referendum? He is a Leaver wanting to win in Leave seats. And he wants to implement his domestic agenda, not waste any further time on Brexit votes. The current situation SUITS him.

@Hesta54
Good question; think UK government is following through on what it believes is its democratic duty to deliver the '16 referendum result and UK parliament has largely facilitated this to date (e.g. by voting through A50). Suspect some members of UK government and many MPs were not aware of extent and depth potential damage and assumed that EU would offer us good terms and that initial positions would be softened/reversed as Mar '19 approaches. Think only now do they start to perceive their own weakness. Think some of them are of the opinion that threatening no-deal will force EU to accept better terms for UK (inc. PM it would seem). Think EU has successfully shown its better prepared for no-deal Brexit than UK and that UK will be much worse affected. Think UK government is in flux as it has yet to openly accept/explain that frictionless SM terms will not be offered and that anything other than this will be v. damaging for UK. Think we the people need to show that we see this and that the responsible option is to head for EEA/EFTA+CU, reverse A50 or referendum.

Basically far too many MPs are clueless about the real 'nuts and bolts' of how the country actually works.
Combine this with those who anticipate making vast fortunes from destroying the country and with a political system set up to be as tortuous and concealed as much as possible and even then with 'get out' clauses such that only a very few have authority to cause chaos.
The existence of Henry V111 powers so that by declaring an emergency practically all moderated decision making can be taken over by ministers who arguably know next to nothing (NI secretary for one).
Senior cabinet ministers who blatantly insult and a press that ridicules the leaders of other countries.
ALL of this on a public stage where the whole world is watching.
It is the equivalent of a parent who is abusing the children while swearing and verbally abusing everyone within earshot, while setting the house on fire even though many are trying to help.

... cont ...
Think some of the conservative party and parts of the UK government think Brexit should be delivered regardless of cost to UK population. Think this is v. dangerous.

Part of the problem is that any credible opposition are so far behind the curve on this that they can't make any significant inroads.
Even they can only talk about what is essentially tinkering with details so are not credible in the situation the UK is now in.
Unless there is some radical thinking VERY SOON there won't be many of the industries that keep the UK going, or at least not the high paid jobs that 'oil' the system.

I'm now writing and thanking everyone who seems to represent me, even though I am not 'will of the people' which somehow now makes me invisible to many politicians. Just written to MEP Seb Dance....when it comes to letter writing we often forget that people who stand up for what we believe actually need encouragement to do so.

Don't agree that all is lost, won't accept that no-deal or canada-deal is inevitable. >700,000 people took to streets only last weekend. It will start to focus minds in parliament particularly on labour side where leadership comes from campaigning background. More is needed, leavers need to look at the situation afresh and reassess. Is it still worth it? If not, then agitate to reverse A50 (organise another march - leavers for remain - has a disjointed ring to it appropriate to our times) or 2nd referendum or EEA/EFTA+CU.

Yes; I agree. I was on such a high after Saturday that I seemed to come down to earth with a bump. But think I've got my mojo back now [thepowerofthepen…]

twofingers: and that's supposed to be an 'argument'? (re. criticism of Trump)

nope, that's just mud slinging

indistict: no, again

all you are doing is just rehashing the Remain side of the referendum campaing.

time to move on, get over it - people voted OUT

a no deal is the best scenario here

For whom?
Certainly not for ordinary people.

Let's see how quickly you'd get over losing your job.
I'd like to keep mine thanks very much. No deal will not help me hang on to it.

foustage: how can L Nandy 'represent the ref result and ALSO represent the 40% who voted Remain?' LOL, that's gotta be some kind of a joke!

And on this note, my lunch break is over. I'll see you all again late at night when my day is done and DCs are in bed.

1tisle: you're right that there's no credible opposition to Brexit - let's face it , Labour are beyond a joke, and marches tend to achieve little

Q: it was basically the 'ordinary' people who voted for Brexit - lose job? perhaps, perhaps not, that could happen to most people at any time these days regardless of Brexit

time to move on, get over it - people voted OUT

Democracy isn't a one time decision. Any bill passing through Parliament is debated and voted on several times.

Several votes on one issue is normal practice unless you have specific rules for referenda and in the U.K. we don't.

If we have another referendum then the debate will continue, as it should, no matter what the result.

You can't claim to support democracy and then want it shut down.

except we've already had numerous bills passed for Brexit, plus an Act of Parliament to have the ref, trig A50, 2 General Elections in it's favour and of the course the vote itself etc etc.......so, just how many chances do Remainers need....

{a no deal is the best scenario here}
From this one line you are either, very rich with your money outside the UK, someone who has bet on the UK doing really badly (probably with an offshore 'bookie', or are incredibly stupid and unable to understand what is happening.

Or just a wind up artist.

{Q: it was basically the 'ordinary' people who voted for Brexit - lose job? perhaps, perhaps not, that could happen to most people at any time these days regardless of Brexit}
For one or two people to lose a job it is a bit of a bummer and ordinarily there will be other jobs available so bad on a personal level but not overall catastrophic.
A no deal Brexit will see many hundreds of thousands losing jobs. Places like Swindon, Cowley, Solihull will become shadows of what they are now, like Tyneside and the old industrial centres of the North.

@threetrees
Don't disagree that I'm presenting alot reasoning that's already been discussed by wiser heads than mine on Westministenders threads and elsewhere but ... tell us why it's wrong. Tell us why shouldn't worry for my DC's and their friend's and all UK DC futures. Tell us why no-deal result in their happiness - what is it about being outside of the EU, with no trade deals, high friction borders raising JIT costs, border checks in EU (inc. Ireland) on UK produced goods (inc. food), defence project contributions (e.g. Galileo) thrown away for nothing in return, etc ... Tell us why we should accept this?

Ooh! an explanation of the WtO quota system that I can finally understand. Seems that WTO quotas are about protecting domestic industries rather than who you can sell to.

So countries objecting to UK's proposed WTO import quotas, those countries are basically saying they think the UK economy won't be such a great market in future for their products compared to rEU. :( or they are just strategising, want to be awkward or get other strategic concessions. Clever, eh? There's only 164 members of WTO to negotiate with.

1tis: there are no arguments in your post - just more mudslinging - I expect better from you

how am I expected to shift to the Remain POV with drivel like this to contend with?

Even arch Brexiters have said no deal will take years for the country to recover from.

indistinct:

we can forge deals with other countries such as US and still trade with EU, Middle East, India, Australia etc..

borders outside the UK are no prob, because that's how most of the world is outside EU

and the first half of your post is just emotional twaddle