People’s Vote Delusion

[PersonaNonGarter]

It isn’t going to happen. For the following reasons:

1. May Government won’t vote for a second referendum
2. No new post-May Tory Government will vote for a second referendum
3. Jeremy Corbyn and those in the Labour Party front benches won’t vote for a second referendum
4. There is no agreement about what the referendum would ask.
5. There is no plausible timetable for a referendum.

Why would Corbyn want a second referendum? He is a Leaver wanting to win in Leave seats. And he wants to implement his domestic agenda, not waste any further time on Brexit votes. The current situation SUITS him.

General rhetorical flourishes are not reasons.

We haven't lost sovereignty that is why we are in this mess. Our sovereign parliament made the decision to hold a referendum. You want sovereignty and then later in the same post want to boycott a decision (second ref) that would be made by the UKs sovereign parliament!

Democracy isn't a one off event. Democracy is an ongoing process we make lots of decisions about the same issue. When a bill passes through parliament it is voted on and debated several times.

As always when pushed leavers demonstrator a fundamental lack of knowledge about the very system they want to reclaim. It's bizarre.

The trouble with the "you call us thick" thing is you say things that make you sound thick.....

Contradicting your own argument in one post is an example.

It's hardly our fault you do that.

If the GE was a 2nd referendum there was hardly a ringing endorsement was there?

Potential for free trade deals

Funny how Germany manages to do so much trade with China and the US whilst still being a member of the EU.

I’d love to know which countries that we don’t already have trade deals with via the EU are queuing up to do FTAs with us and what were going to sell them that we can’t already?

@MooseMousse, not to be rude about who is thick and who isn't, I actually voted Remain.
I do live in an area with one of the highest amount of Leave votes though, and the general consensus is that many who voted Remain feel it's fine to ask to vote again due to the attitude of some Remainers that leave voters are lower class or less intelligent.
I made my vote to remain.
We lost.
Move on.

1.we do have control of our borders: we chose not to be part of Schengen. The fact that we chose never to implement the controls that we did have, ie that it is not simply "Freedom of Movement", it is "Freedom of Movement to work " and that the UK could deport anyone after 3 months if they were not exercising their treaty right is the UK's responsibility, not the EU's fault

1. Even Theresa May said in the after the event White Paper that we'd never lost our sovereignty , "it just felt like we had" Something like 97% of laws are still UK generated. And there is only a handful of cases where the UK has lost at the ECJ. (And most of the cases that Leavers complain about are EHCR anyway an institution which the UK was the driving force in founding which is nothing to do with the EU )

1. Has already been answered by Buteu Funny how all these other EU countries are able to sign good trade deals with other countries, like India, and the UK can't In India's case, it is apparently down to the UK's unwillingness to offer more skilled visas - something that Germany wasn't so snotty about doing.

But you know this. This has been said on this and other threads many, many times. You just don't want to accept it

Hesta54 Successive Governments do not train enough Midwifes for (as you called it) "easy to predict" population growth, they didn't do it pre 2004 either.

My point is that despite having a very good idea what FOM would mean and even when they did see the realities, Governments did absolutely nothing, no extra teachers, health services, leisure centres, housing, transport... and why? because these people don't lead our lives, they don't use our schools or our NHS.

This lack of concern and action is what is behind Brexit but this "solution" will only make matters worse, they'll have more power and the UK will have less money, jobs and opportunity.

This is why Brexit must, even at this late stage, be stopped.

I am assuming that anybody objecting to the term People’s Vote on the grounds that it implies half the population are “not people” have been scrupulously fair in objecting, for 2 years, to the term Will of the People on the grounds that it implies half the population are “not people”.

jasjas1973 FOM made it easy for the governments not to train our own as they could cherry pick already train personnel at that countries expense, I am always surprised that other EU governments don’t charge the U.K. a training fee

@ConfusedMum82 what would you call it then? Does the name matter?

It's never ending!

That's democracy for you ~shrugs~.

The problem with referendums with a narrow margin of victory is that they have a very short sell-by date. This is why a supermajority is usually required in the case of binding referendums (which this wasn't although it's been treated as binding).

This issue is particularly acute in this case because of the very unbalanced demographics, with Brexit support being strongest amongst pensioners and weakest among the youngest groups of voters. As old people die and young people reach voting age, the "people" change.

This wouldn't be so much of an issue if Brexit were capable of speedy implementation but we've taken the best part of 2.5 years to not manage to negotiate the withdrawal agreement. We still have the thorny issue of the actual deal to sort out during the transition period (if there is one). My teenagers, 13 and 15 at the time of the referendum, will be fully-fledged electors long before the ink dries on the final deal.

ConfusedMum82 hmmm

You see in relation to being thick "We lost.Move on" really isn't the strongest argument.

As I have said repeatedly democracy isn't a one off event. New laws are not voted on once. A bill is introduced and is debated and will be voted on several times during its passage through the HoC and HoL.

Voting on a new law several times is not unusual - it is the way U.K. government works.

A government may lose a vote at the second reading, revise and change the law and reintroduce it. The don't say "We lost. Move on".

"We lost move on" is the very opposite of democracy and demonstrates a lack of understanding as to how democracy in the U.K. works.

I'm sorry if people feel they are considered less intelligent. I don't know if they are less intelligent but if they say "you lost move on" they are certainly less informed and unaware of how U.K. democracy works.

Hesta54
There is zero evidence companies or Gov will change their recruiting or training policies, indeed, the answer seems to be to now cherry pick from the rest of the world.

mother: if there were a boycott, the 3rd ref would have no value

Why on earth would you boycott?
this would be Leaves opportunity to show the World the UK is 100% behind brexit and to unit the country behind a common purpose...

On the other hand if you think you'd lose hands down.........

pbird - having to 'let people' in under FOM rules is not border control, being able to deport after 3 months but still having to let them in in the first place or face sanction is NOT border control , that's fairly obvious

pbird: Germany's administration of the current era is the last we want to emulate, - they are a disgrace and many of their leaders ought to be in jail esp. Merkel

hesta: re. migrants being skilled

garbage, some may be but most do low skill NON tax paying work whilst getting beneifts at the same time - a net drain on the UK economy!

jasjas : because if the government/Establishment failed in its attempted stitch up first time around, you can bet they wouldn't fail twice

You made that up, as it is not supported by the facts see Migration Advisory Committee

But as DRG said Facts = Leavers Krptonite

some may be but most do low skill NON tax paying work whilst getting beneifts at the same time - a net drain on the UK economy!

Evidence?

As far as i'm aware, there was little in the way of vote counting fraud.

There was however, illegal over spend by Leave and Russian involvement on social media during the campaign.

Whether that was enough to swing the result, who knows? but if the gov/est really wanted to reverse the decision, they d have done so on this evidence alone.

pbird: Germany's administration of the current era is the last we want to emulate, - they are a disgrace and many of their leaders ought to be in jail esp. Merkel
Very Trumpian. (Lock her up!)

some may be but most do low skill NON tax paying work whilst getting beneifts at the same time - a net drain on the UK economy!
And this would still not be true no matter how many exclamation marks you used!!!

How would you be able to tell the difference between a voter boycott and voter apathy?

I do love it when threetrees comes on to give us the benefit of his vastly superior opinions.

He does wonders for the Remain case

And just to counter one of his fallacious arguments.....here is table from the Government itself demonstrating that it is the EU citizens that are subsidising "native" UK citizens.

I have to thank him for providing the opportunity to post this again The Lurkers might be interested, even though I'm sure he isn't interest in pesky facts and statistics