People’s Vote Delusion

[PersonaNonGarter]

It isn’t going to happen. For the following reasons:

1. May Government won’t vote for a second referendum
2. No new post-May Tory Government will vote for a second referendum
3. Jeremy Corbyn and those in the Labour Party front benches won’t vote for a second referendum
4. There is no agreement about what the referendum would ask.
5. There is no plausible timetable for a referendum.

Why would Corbyn want a second referendum? He is a Leaver wanting to win in Leave seats. And he wants to implement his domestic agenda, not waste any further time on Brexit votes. The current situation SUITS him.

Fair enough - currently heading for no-deal or atrocious desperate deal to avoid no-deal with long-term repercussions on economy.

Leavers, regardless of original thinking this is where we're at and will result in misery for current generation of UK DC. To change that you need to engage and consider what you want/would accept from Brexit and get acitve to make it happen (along with remainers).

I Iive in an area with a high proportion of immigrants - primarily non-EU (Indian subcontinent) but also a lot of EU immigrants. Ds' catchment primary school was 60% EAL (English as an Additional Language) - primarily Urdu. The neighboroughing primary (actually closer to us ) is 98% EAL

His ex secondary school is c50% EAL and there are something like 55 languages spoken at the school It is rightly proud of its ethnic and demographic diversity. Ds was glad he went to a school like that.

Despite - or because of - the many immigrants (most of whom could vote, whether or not they were UK citizens, as they are Commonwealth citizens), this area voted over 70% Remain.

We also voted strongly in favour of Independence

Prettybird
Think it's because not despite. Fear of outsiders/foreigners appears to be worse than actual outsiders/foreigners who are generally lovely.

I don't think anyone said that Leavers were Nazis. The point being made was that the people manipulating the population were members of an elite as are Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg. I know that Farage is on the fringe, not being electable to Parliament but working class boy from a rough estate who has made good, is most certainly what he is not.

As for foreigners - in an awful lot of towns a foreigner is someone from ten miles away and some towns and villages look down on those from neighbouring ones, because the people there are "common" and they consider themselves better.

I know it's because - I was being slightly sarcastic . I'm glad to live in an outward looking, multi-cultural neighbourhood.

And ds' old secondary school has a very high proportion of SIMD1 and 2 ( Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation) - but still manages to get exam results above what would be expected, given its demographic (even though, when the expected exam profile is calculated, they don't include EAL as a relevant influencer ) The school even fought during a recent consultations to keep a poorer area in it, as the mixed demographic is an important part of its identity - and success

It's that education that probably contributed to the high Remain vote

{Tory leader in European Parliament makes Nazi jibe at German MEP

Syed Kamall claimed the centre-left had the same aims as the Nazis}
And Mr Hunt's comments the other week about the EU acting like Russia.
How to win friends and influence people 'Tory style'.

Don't think though that education alone will save people. The pre-war Germans were cultured and well educated and yet enough of them either went along with what the Nazis were doing, or didn't observe
or think to question, until it was far far too late.

Apologies Mousemouse/Peregrina think I was guilty of exactly the fault that was trying to caution against. Appreciate you were both making more nuanced points relating to Brexit politics/politicians and echoes with 1930s Germany, but for many leavers suspect mere mention of nazis, facism, racism etc ... results in an instinctive 'blatant off-the-scale over-reaction' judgement and comment is ignored. Prettybird - apologies too for missing sarcasm, can be surprisingly dense at times.

or think to question, until it was far far too late

This is exactly what is happening now, many people have blind faith in our leaders to do the right think and are just carrying on as if nothing is going to happen.

I ve lost count of the number of folk who say "nothing much will change" or best of all "we'll never leave anyway, as they'll be no-deal"

My concern with the parallels is no one votes for a mass murderer, it doesn't say that in the manifesto.

Many Germans didn't agree with all of Hitler's policies, including Nazi voters. They just thought in the difficult circumstances after they had been betrayed and stabbed in the back he was a strong alternative.

Ideas of sovereignty, self determination and strength were thrown around. The problems in Germany were caused by foreigners and could be easily solved.

Once Brexit happens and the economic shit hits the fan easy solutions will seem so tempting, the issues will the the fault of elites and foreigners. The rhetoric is so familiar and so dangerous.

indistinct, it's nice to see a measured response from a remainer with at least a view of where we might go from here rather than the doom disaster and finger pointing we see from so many on here. I don't agree with your suggestion of a Norway style exit though I'm afraid. It does not stop FOM and ties us into a lot of things with no say on their implementation.

My angle on FOM as I have said often on these boards is that I found it racist in that they promoted the free movement of people mainly of white Christian extraction. I feel we should treat people the same no matter where in the world they are from, or of what colour or race they are. So in fact the recent GOV. announcements on future immigration policy post Brexit pretty much answers my problems with FOM, apart that is with regard to unskilled labour, and how we are going to man certain industries who at the moment relay mainly on eastern European. Oddly enough UKIP came out and stated that their policy had been in line with what the gov. has suggested so pretty much the same as mine - although I certainly wouldn't align myself with them!

Oddly enough UKIP came out and stated that their policy had been in line with what the gov. has suggested so pretty much the same as mine
That must be why they used non-white faces on their 'breaking point' poster.

Brexit is Racism.

Non white faces of a queue that wasn't on the EU border. The day before Jo Cox was murdered by a loon egged on by this shit.
Be careful who you get into bed with for the greater good.

woman11017 please can you justify that statement, how can wanting to leave the EU be racist

I wish people wouldn't forget that FOM is RECIPROCAL. It's fine to say that immigration should be more mixed and skills based - though I personally don't for one minute believe that most brexiteers want more brown faces at at all - but by stopping FOM we also lose OUR rights to live and work in the EU. The EU pension system is also integrated. You can work in different countries and they are all taken into account.

I just can't understand why anyone wouldn't want FOM. I thought the Brexit lot were all about the freedoms that were fought for in WW2. It makes no sense.

I personally want the freedom to go where I want, especially now the future of the UK is looking so grim. Who wants to be trapped here with Mogg?

@Doubletrouble99

Considering the well known issues/costs with integration and multiculturalism (in UK and Europe) why do you feel its advantageous to have 100s of 1000s of migrants from non white non christian extraction coming to the UK over the next few years?

Especially so considering we don't have an ID card system, have no real idea of who is here and our record on deportations (of illegals) is so poor.

The difference in economies and flight costs/times to Europe and Africa/Asia are huge, why would these new migrants be willing or indeed able to go home after any visa has expired?

jasjas - that's a weird argument! My principle is that it makes no difference where the people come from and that we should treat everyone the same. The fact that there are some idiot racists around doesn't mean we shouldn't want to change things. There are far too many people shouting 'racist' any time a leaver talks about FOM which is just rubbish. I think you will find that the vast amount of leavers will have similar views to me. Look up what UKIP say about immigration and see that they are saying exactly the same thing.

Yes FOM is reciprocal, but as you can see by figures published only a very few U.K. nationals ( apart from holidays ) make use of it and a large proportion of them are retired Oap’s on a permanent holiday, it’s more to do with control and numbers and areas where the people end up, Are already under pressure local Gp surgery has this week alone had 20 extra people register adding more to a system that can’t cope, yes you can blame the government, but how do they know how many and where people are going to turn up?

Do you know whether these 20 extra people registering at the GPs are immigrants exercising FoM rights?

It's as much likely that they are people registering because either they have moved into new housing being built locally, or because another local surgery has shut. My own surgery was threatened with closure a year back, so re-registering elsewhere was on the cards. DS surgery closed, causing a move.

If our Government doesn't know where its own people are, why is that the fault of the EU? Why instead don't they get their act together?

Motheroffourdragons perhaps you could explain to me, why are these people so desperate to get to the U.K. they come through so many other EU countries.

Peregrina yes immigrants using FOM,