Reasons to remain and reasons to leave

[MyNameIsArthur]

I am hoping this thread can be constructive, respectful and insult free on both sides and to be informative.

I would like to hear everyone's views on why they think it important to remain or leave. I want to hear what the positives and negatives are for remain or leave, in the short, medium and long term in your opinion.

Also, if leave will definitely happen, then what do you think would be the best deal we should try for? What future relationship would you like with the EU?

{ unbridled capitalism that is enabled by the freedoms that I am so against.}
Since Mr Fox is busy cosying up to the USA administration with deals that can't be revealed for 4 years I think 'unbridled capitalism' is coming your way very fast.
Epipens, around £45 to the NHS, and over 400 Dollars in the USA, around £350?

How much is private health insurance these days?
Worldwide coverage was about £7,000.

@twofingerstoEverything I sympathise with you - safe seats are horrific. I know, I live in one. I don't have the answers.

I just don't agree with tactical voting - my feeling is that it subverts democracy - voting for what you don't want instead of voting for what you want seems wrong to me.

@1tisLeClerc I think we'll still have an NHS after Brexit, so no need to worry about life insurance just yet.

And yes, I worry about unbridled capitalism from the US (and the rest of the world), of course. The EU gives us no ability to prevent it, however.

Of the four freedoms, the freedom of movement of capital is the one that I despise the most, and the one that appears to receive less scrutiny than, e.g. freedom of movement of people (which receives lots of focus because it's easy to slander people as racists for opposing it).

But all four of them are horrible, and provide frameworks that allow companies to minimise their tax bills, pay lower wages and generally do whatever they want regardless of the consequences to their staff.

This is why I'm against them.

I can see what you mean, scorpio, but in a way I am voting for what I want - to oust the Tory incumbent. I don't think that's subverting democracy, particularly when I look at the other parties and see literally no-one to support. I'm traditionally Labour (but they don't have a snowball's chance in my constituency) but couldn't vote for them at the moment because I'm beyond disappointed at the way they've propped up the Tories since the referendum. I'm disgusted at their lack of opposition. As you're a Corbyn supporter and leave voter, I can see this wouldn't bother you at all, but it bothers me hugely. Without a fully functioning opposition, the government can get away with anything.

btw If anyone can explain the benefits of free movement of capital please do.

@scorpio32

I get why you re concerned about the EU (and want to leave, i also hope you are right and i'm wrong) no-one can be happy how countries like Greece and Portugal were allowed to join the Eurozone or how the migrant crisis in the med/Greece has been handled

Its just that having lived in Sweden and seen what a more Socialist approach can achieve in the EU, i think that collectivism, where we work toward reform of the EU, avoid conflict (not just militarily) we can change how we do things in both Europe and the UK, we are powerful nation and could have shown the EU a bit more backbone and challenged things a lot more than we have, take a more Gallic approach!!!

One issue with Brexit is the empowerment it has given the likes of Tommy Robinson, the pure racist filth that is now openly shared on the internet has got far worse in the last few years.

I think we'll still have an NHS after Brexit, so no need to worry about life insurance just yet.
I wish I shared your confidence here, scorpio. The NHS is already in dire straits and is catastrophically under-funded. Staff morale is low, we aren't training enough UK HCPs, nursing bursaries have been removed etc etc... So I'm interested in why you think we'll still have an NHS after Brexit. Actually - we probably will in some form, but I can't see it being fit for purpose, which will push more people into private healthcare schemes until we have a two-tier system, rather than good universal healthcare.

@jasjas1973 I'd be happy with a more Socialist approach, but I don't think that's what the EU offers. Besides, outside of the EU we CAN have a more socialist government, we just need the labour party to stop it's in-fighting and get behind Corbyn.

With regards to Tommy Robinson (and right wing racists in general) having more visibility I think the internet is a big part of that. It would be easy to silence them on traditional media, but nowadays that's impossible.

It's not a new problem however.

Sadly, this type of scum will always find a bandwagon to fall behind and it pisses me off that racism is such a big part of the Brexit discussion, because it provides oxygen where I want these people to suffocate.

I really wish the discussion wasn't centred around race/racism. It's not the biggest problem with the EU.

Materially, people appear to be no better off through being in the EU.

I know you are not the only person to think this scorpio but it defies logic to say shit things have happened whilst we've been in the EU.

It's like saying it's rained every day since I've been married - it might be true but the 2 facts are not linked.

Can you really not see that?

@twofingerstoEverything I am an optimist...

@Bearbehind - yes, of course I see that. I'm not blaming the EU - although I did say they have some culpability for some of it.

I'm saying that the EU doesn't intervene to help people - it intervenes to help business, at the expense of people.

btw, congratulations on getting married yesterday - it looks like the first rain-free day of your marriage ;-)

This is the issue though, we could have had a more socialist approach decades ago, instead we cling to empire and believe we are still masters of the universe.
We need to be able to stand up to the likes of the USA,China, as little ol Britain, that is difficult.

If anything Brexit will lead to more right wing politics, less regulation of capital and more free market thinking!

I totally agree Labour MP's should back their leader, i bitterly regret Labour losing in 2010/2015, we d not have Brexit !

So how do you think things are going to improve when just the day to day things we are used to, like frictionless trade, are going to need so much time spending on them just to stand still?

As I said, there's no logic in your thought process.

I totally agree Labour MP's should back their leader

This fascinates me.

From where I'm standing the Labour party's problem is their leader.

What redeeming qualities does JC actually have because the way he's handled Brexit is a disgrace.

@Bearbehind - I don't know if things will improve - I hope they will, but nothing is guaranteed.

It doesn't change my opinion that the four fundamental principles of the EU are wrong. I can't say this often enough.

I'm not going to vote for a status quote I fundamentally object to because the alternative is difficult. My thought processes are clear on this matter and as logical as I can wrap my brain around. I acknowledge the difficulties, although I can't predict the consequences, and nor can anyone else.

Corbyn is a marmite politician, but I think his basic principles are sound and offer a good alternative to a Tory future.

Scorpio, I hear and understand your concerns about the EU, but

a) Labour will not win an election with Corbyn as leader. Your inability to understand tactical voting makes you blind here. Many of us voted Labour at the last election as a vote against the Tories, not as a vote for JC. This is what tactical voting is all about.

b) a no deal Brexit will be a catastrophe. Of course it can get worse, much worse, and the poor will suffer the most

c) any other deal makes us a rule taker which I presume you’d object to, and is unlikely to honour the GFA.

Labour will not win an election with Corbyn as leader.
I think this is probably true. Remainers have literally no party standing up for their interests. Most of my friends and colleagues are traditional labour voters, but they are all as disgusted as I am at the party's lack of opposition to Brexit. I know there are individuals like David Lammy who are outspoken in their oppposition to it, but on the whole, I see Labour as propping up the Tory party in something that I think will cause lasting damage, and I'm not sure if I will ever forgive them for this. I feel disenfranchised TBH.

WiseUpJanetWeiss,

a) I do understand tactical voting, I just object to it and won't take part. I understand feeling the need to vote against the Tories, but if you're not careful you'll just get another New Labour again, which may be fine for you but not something that I want.

b) No-one knows for sure whether it will be a catastrophe or not. It may be a catastrophe. It is a risk that I'm willing to risk however, given the reasons I have tried to clearly lay out in my previous posts.

c) I'm not sure what you mean about us becoming a rule taker. If you're discussing any trade deals with the EU then I would argue that we are already a rule taker, and they rules are the thing that I object to most strongly.

With regards to the GFA I think there must be a solution out there - after all, we're not the only country with a border to the EU and they manage fine. I don't think we need hard borders and checkpoints in this day an age to manage trading internationally. I don't have the answers, but then, I'm not a politician. That's what they're there for, to overcome obstacles like this.

Corbyn was always anti-EU and May was always pro-EU. The gamesmanship going on in politics today is disgusting, but to reject Labour for not supporting your desire to remain seems to ignore this fact.

Parties that are outspoken in their contempt for the referendum will face a long time in the shadows.

Finally, I support the policies of Corbyn. I don't mind who is at the top of the table as long as they share his views. I don't want some weaselly fake Tory with a red rosette pretending to represent the working class whilst doing nothing of the sort.

Scorpio

I’m going to sit on the fence here.

Corbyn represent the working class? Are you having a laugh?

He represents the independent republic of Islington, students who were bought over his tuition fee ‘promises’ and the hopelessly dispossessed.

Corbyn is a career backbench apologist for every and any adversary of this country and he wouldn’t know a member of the working class if he fell over him as he left his £££ Islington pad.

The man is a dangerous loon and him being in charge, free of any eu rules is a scary prospect.

I’m afraid he is a false prophet who’s only apparent appeal that he isn’t a ‘blairite’

At least Blair could win an election

@10degreestostarboard If that is you sitting on the fence I'd be terrified to face you on something you have an opinion about!

I haven't put as much time into Corbyn as the EU so I'm not in a position to refute your allegations.

I just happened to think that Labour had a good manifesto at the last election that had solid roots in helping the poor, and I'm sad they didn't win. I don't really care who is at the top if the manifesto remains.

@scorpio32

@Bearbehind

Of course Lab MPs should back JC, he has been democratically elected with one member one vote, these MPs are out of step with many peoples views, hence the stella (by previous std's) the 2017 GE,
what would that result have been if they d not given the tories/MSM an open goal???

I ve always said the only (possible) silver lining to brexit is the destruction of the Tory party but its likely to be a price far to high as it will hit the poorest in society hardest.

I certainly wouldn't want to go back to pre 4 freedoms era:
the corruption, manipulation of money markets, currency controls, little sharing of scientific discoveries, the insular nature of the UK, the racism & and terrible meals!!

I'd add that FOM is something that we'll be allowing with any future FTAs, India and the USA have already been mentioned in this regard.

I'd rather the EU negotiate these and have the economic might to say NO.

Good to see you're still on!

I assure you that the corruption, manipulation of the money markets and currency controls is happening under the EU and will continue regardless of Brexit. You can't stop greed.

Racism and the far right is on the rise within the EU. This needs to be stopped, regardless of Brexit.

Sharing of scientific discoveries isn't something I know about, but I'm sure science won't stop after Brexit.

Insular - I'm not sure what you mean - we have the Commonwealth - how is that in any way insular?

Terrible meals, well, I never did learn how to cook.

It's the freedom of movement of capital that I object to most strongly. Movement of people will be a part of any negotiation but I think the government has learned that open borders is no longer acceptable to the general public.