Reasons to remain and reasons to leave

[MyNameIsArthur]

I am hoping this thread can be constructive, respectful and insult free on both sides and to be informative.

I would like to hear everyone's views on why they think it important to remain or leave. I want to hear what the positives and negatives are for remain or leave, in the short, medium and long term in your opinion.

Also, if leave will definitely happen, then what do you think would be the best deal we should try for? What future relationship would you like with the EU?

Or just leave it to go a bit manky on the side of the sink ? My copy is from 1975 , a bit tatty but complete, bit like me

Wish I could attend the march , unfortunately I am working that weekend, might see if I can find a way of supporting it in spirit , wont be allowed to wear badges on my uniform though.

Sorry for the long post.

Firstly, if you're expecting all of the Brexiteers to come on here and tell you why they support Brexit you're going to be disappointed. Two years of being insulted, being called stupid, racist and bigotted gets you down after a while. And we won - we are the majority and in a democracy, that matters.

However, I'm willing to stick my head above the parapet and tell you MY reasons why I think we need to leave the EU. These are only my views and don't represent anyone else.

Firstly, at grass roots level, with the people, the benefits of being in the EU are not tangible. Materially, people appear to be no better off through being in the EU.

However, whilst in the EU we have had the banking crisis, austerity, loss of our fishing industry, loss of our steel industry, wage deflation, massive house price inflation, desperate inequality between rich and poor and plenty of other woes. I'm not blaming the EU for all of that (although the have some culpability), but the EU hasn't prevented them either, or protected the people, so why do we need it? It's even worse in Greece, which demonstrated the shocking lengths that the EU will go to undermine democracy.

The EU doesn't exist to help ordinary people. It exists to help business. It exists to increase the inequality between rich and poor.

The four fundamental freedoms (freedom of movement, freedom of goods and services, freedom of capital) allow businesses to hire cheap labour, or relocate to wherever in the EU has the cheapest workforce, and create fake shell companies allowing profits to be moved to wherever the tax laws mean they pay the least tax.

This hurts us as a country, by diminishing our tax take. It hurts other countries too, as they watch their skilled labour leave for richer places. South Europe has been dealt such a bad hand by the EU that it's not funny. Germany and France do well through, so that's alright.

We pay for this 'privilege'.

There will be pain after we leave the EU, but we've been in pain for 10 years or more, so who cares? People complaining about how this affects 2 generations of children - these kids are already affected. Low wages, the gig economy, unable to buy houses without huge government loans that cripple them for life, unable to go to university with huge government loans that cripple them for life, these are happening NOW, and were happening before we decided to leave.

I've no idea what the future holds, but I believe that relying on the EU for our future prosperity is a terrible mistake, and as much as I don't trust our politicians, I trust the EU even less. And we can vote out our politicians, which we can't do with the unelected cabal in Brussels.

I'm going into hiding now - I won't respond to comments as I've no intention of changing my mind.

@scorpio32

Totally agree with much of what you ve just said and that it happened whilst IN the EU disproves this myth the EU has some sort of hold over our lives, laws and Governance.

UK issues, that could be dealt with by the UK Government of the day.

All that leaving does is allow the Government to do even worse things to us all.

@Scorpio32
Sadly if you check facts, with as many independent people as you like, none of the 'downsides' you have expressed are anything to do with the EU but ENTIRELY down to the UK government.
The EU does expect individual countries to behave like 'grown ups' and manage their own economies as the EU is more of a regulatory framework, and does not set the specific rules.
Lonelyplanetmum put up a great chard as the second from last entry on the previous Westminsterenders thread showing how many opt outs the UK has. This shows how 'light touch' the EU actually is on the UK economy.

Grr, I know I said that I wouldn't respond, but it looks like I was wrong.

@jasjas1973 - Yes, our government could do worse things. However, we can remove them from office. This is fundamental to democracy. Not so the EU commission.

@1tisLeClerc - I understand that. But we have to abide to the 4 fundamental freedoms and I fundamentally disagree with them, for the reasons I stated. Also, the drive for an 'ever closer union' is so worrying (for me) that I'm willing to accept a no deal Brexit, with all of the difficulties, above that.

@scorpio32 Good on ya!

But we don't vote them out do we? we just vote back in more of the same, primarily the party that promises tax cuts at the expense of all we both care about.

A few things that affect my daughters generation, uni fees/ debt, unpaid internships, rent and housing costs.

ALL could be legislated for by our own Government BUT we encourage private land lords, have no rent controls or security of tenure, train our own youth BUT all on our very own..... we chose to spend on triple lock on pensions, build a useless railway and buy a new trident weapons system..... instead of investing in the younger generation, housing, training/manufacturing, health.... like Germany does! in the EU.

We could vote in the (for example) Green party for most of the above to be done but we continue to vote in Lab/Tory time and time again......

So easier to blame the EU.

The UK has an 'opt out' against further political union and ALL the laws that the EU might dream up are voted for by UK MEPs. If they don't agree then it does not apply to the UK, pretty simple.
ALL MEPs are voted for, so UK people voted for UK MEPs.
There are a few in the EU who are elected by others rather than 'the people' but they (like Mr Junker) are representatives of the elected and do not 'make' rules themselves.
If the UK wants to trade (sell) anything to the EU it has to conform to EU standards. If the UK makes 'lower quality' goods then it can't be sold to the EU so they would have to find buyers who will accept the lower standard. The only practical issue with the 4 'pillars' could be freedom of movement and there were already regulations that could have been used but weren't.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I vote for the Green party ;-)

I've never voted for an MEP.

Look, sadly, I just expressed my opinion, as requested by the OP. I don't really want to justify everything I said, as it is purely that, an opinion.

I'm well aware of the points you make, but it doesn't make me want to change my view that the EU is there for the benefit of the rich, of which I am not one.

I doubt whether Scorpio is sorry for the long post. As for being insulted - it's no more than we Remainers, sorry 'Remoaners' have had to put up with, but we aren't running away.

So we have had ten years of austerity, yes - which Westminster has not bothered itself to tackle. So you would like to see another 50 years of that? Charming. You don't need to reply Scorpio, because your post was all the stock cliches. If your pals, Johnson, Davis, Farage, could actually come up with some plans, and how to implement them instead of running away from their posts, or in Farage's case not even being electable to the UK Parliament, I might be prepared to listen.

You may not be racist, but a significant number of Leave voters are, and there is no escaping that. Friend Farage for one.

I don't have a link for it but just for a laugh you could look at where the EU spends money in the UK. It's regeneration fund 'pushes' Westminster government to improve areas that are struggling all across the UK. Money that Westminster claims it can't or won't invest.
There is a handy interactive website you can go on which shows places around you that have received money from the EU. About 4 Million had been provided within about 10 mile radius of where I live.
Failing to vote for an MEP is your choice of course but if you don't engage you can't complain afterwards.

@scorpio32

Then you can't really say "we can vote them out" because all 3 main parties have very similar policies and always have.

Moving fwd if brexit can be a success, then we need to change how and who we vote for or you are just part of the problem.

Peregrina, I've never called anyone a remoaner, in real life or on-line.

Please don't associate me with Farage or Johnson, of whom I have no time for (and Gove for that matter) although I do have a grudging respect for Davies.

Your post added nothing to the conversation. Please fuck off so I can continue having an intelligent discussion with grown ups.

Actually, I'll fuck off. I've expressed my opinion. Debate amongst yourselves.

I for one am very tired of Leavers offering opinions on democracy and then they tell us that they don't vote in the European elections i.e. they don't bother to exercise the democratic rights they have.

I always vote, in every election. In most cases my preferred candidate has a fat chance of being elected, but we fought hard for the vote so I believe we should use it. I even voted in the Police Commissioner elections a couple of years back; a totally pointless election as far as I was concerned, and we had no literature through the door whatever. I know I didn't and couldn't vote UKIP or Tory, but otherwise, I might as well have stuck in pin in the other names. Either way, the Tory won. To sink without trace, whatever they have done in the role has been totally invisible.

You don't understand democracy, Peregrina.

It's totally within my democratic right NOT to vote, or to spoil my ballot paper. In fact, I think people that vote tactically are far worse - the idea that you can 'hold your nose' while voting for something you don't agree with sickens me, yet people seem to do it and then boast that they were making a difference.

@scorpio32

Don't go forth and multiply... i'd really like to know the "why" its incomprehensible to me, as we are just putting our trust solely into the hands of the exact same politicians who ve let us all down.

So, if we get this wrong, within 5 years we'll be begging to rejoin.

The Government wouldn't be spending money on disaster coordinators and re modelling m/ways if there were not significant long term risks.

Two years of being insulted, being called stupid, racist and bigotted gets you down after a while. And we won - we are the majority and in a democracy, that matters.

And the first response from the poster of that gem was:
Your post added nothing to the conversation. Please fuck off so I can continue having an intelligent discussion with grown ups.

Deary me, who is dishing out insults now? BTW I never said that Scorpio used the term Remoaner, but it is the stock term used by leavers. As for Farage - no, no one has said that All leavers are racist, but he was one of the poster boys for Leave, and it is difficult to dissociate the Leave vote from that.

Next answer - I don't understand democracy. I suspect I understand it better than the average voter, having worked on elections and having read the rules about them.

Who incidentally said anything about tactical voting?

In case you didn't notice Peregrina, it was a personal insult, not directed at the people who voted to remain. I respect their views. Just not yours.

I did. I was making the point that I would prefer not to vote rather than vote tactically just so I can say that I voted. I am acknowledging that I did not vote, that I did it deliberately, and that as a result I accept the democratic result.

Doing so does not make my opinion invalid. It doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make it invalid.

I think people that vote tactically are far worse
See, I don't understand this. I live in a safe seat, so feel my vote is wasted, although demographics are slowly changing and the seat is becoming less 'safe'. I would never vote for UKIP, but would vote for almost anyone else locally who stood against the local incumbent MP and had the best chance of unseating him. In the case of my area, the LibDems are the party most likely to unseat the Tory MP, so I vote for them, despite not actively supporting them. I would like to unseat him because decades of being our MP have made him complacent and lazy. Also, I cannot and will not support Tory austerity politics. Surely voting tactically is taking action of some sort, whereas not voting at all is just apathetic. Spoiling your ballot is IMO also 'taking action', but what a sad state of affairs when so many people do this or don't vote because they feel that there is literally no-one representing the interests of people like them.

Reasons to Remain 412:

M-WAY MADNESS Major motorway is secretly shut down overnight so it can be turned into a post-Brexit lorry park

The M26 in Kent will be closed every night for six weeks ahead of Britain leaving the EU

www.thesun.co.uk/news/7470945/m26-motorway-closed-brexit-lorry-park/

@jasjas1973, so many thing I agree with you (in several of your posts) but I'll try to explain myself a bit more clearly.

Firstly, I don't trust our politicians. I think that the points you mentioned about landlords, secured rent, trident, crossrail, etc are absolutely, 100% correct.

I'd love a strong Labour party and would vote for them without question, but damn, they are doing a great job of making themselves unelectable. I wish they would form a line behind Jeremy Corbin but instead, they cling onto Blairite policies like they are written in tablets of stone. It is the reason why I don't vote - how can I vote for the party that I want to when I don't trust that the person with a social conscience that I admire will be in the job 6 months later.

However, that is a totally separate for my reasons to leave the EU. I believe that the fundamental freedoms are dangerous and open to abuse. I know the EU does some good but I'm suspicious of their motives (is it good for goods sake, or good to make people want/need the EU). I believe that we need to take a stand against the unbridled capitalism that is enabled by the freedoms that I am so against.