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Brexit

Westministenders: Talks Walk Out?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2018 22:39

We are now on the countdown to whether we get a backstop Withdrawal Deal. May is hoping to get the EU to backdown on this saying that we will stay in the customs union until a deal is agreed on NI. That would mean come 29th March, we'd have no transistion period, but we'd still have a hard border in NI because we were out of the single market. And if the EU don't agree to it we are into the chances of accidental Brexit being sky high. The only way out would be revoking a50. May has hinted that if Tory MPs don't give her support we could end up with no brexit at all - whether she means revoking a50 or Beano isn't clear.

So onward to 18th October...

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10degreestostarboard · 05/10/2018 10:05

Bearbehind

Explain why surrendering our law and trade making ability is desirable

Explain why uncontrollable fom is desirable

Explain why ever closer union is desirable

Explain why rule from foreign soil is desirable

1tisILeClerc · 05/10/2018 10:12

I am sure that 10degrees is about to demonstrate his/her/it's great powers of reasoning and explain to everyone how the border situation between Ireland and NI can be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties.
In 2016, it has now been demonstrated that the 'best' thing for the UK to do was remain.
Now, with the economy hemorrhaging £500 Million a week and the UK hasn't even left yet it is getting a bit difficult to see how the UK is going to manage to be 'truly great' again, assuming it ever really was.
The UK government at least has proven itself to be untrustworthy in the face of all other world leaders which is the truly damaging aspect of the whole affair.
Being on MN, so may threads are on the lines of 'he/she strayed, how can I ever trust them again. The UK gov has well and truly 'blown it' and put a myriad stumbling blocks in front of all the excellent UK businesses all based on a pack of lies.
Businesses and world leaders all speak English and they can see straight through the complete crap that is coming from the UK government. For some it will represent loss of business, for which they will be pretty angry. For others it will be an opportunity for when the Pound devalues and workers rights get diminished for UK workers to become the new 'cheap labour' country, as we have previously seen in Japan, China, India and Bangladesh. Japanese products in the 50's? were deemed cheap and awful (Datsun car anyone?) but now they have worked hard and invested and are close to 'top of the tree'.
China and India are on the way up.
Even severe patriotism will not put bread on the table.

Bearbehind · 05/10/2018 10:13

Explain why surrendering our law and trade making ability is desirable

We haven't to any great extent. What laws have been imposed on us, that we didn't agree with?
What countries do we want to trade with that we can't?

Explain why uncontrollable fom is desirable

It's was never 'uncontrollable' we just chose not to control it to the extent we could

Explain why ever closer union is desirable

Because the world is a smaller place and they are our closest neighbours - we always had a veto on anything we didn't want to do.

Explain why rule from foreign soil is desirable

See point 1 - what 'rule' are you referring to?

No over to you 10, could we have some facts to argue my points please.

TheElementsSong · 05/10/2018 10:14

10 seems to think that foreign is the killer argument.

10degreestostarboard · 05/10/2018 10:14

Leclerc

The only thing ‘demonstrated’ is your personal bias and europhilia

10degreestostarboard · 05/10/2018 10:15

The elements

Absolutely - the world is divided into nation states

HesterThrale · 05/10/2018 10:15

BBC reports on R4 10am news that a main factor in Unliever’s Decision not to relocate was that they’d no longer be eligible to be members of the FTSE 100.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45758886

10degreestostarboard · 05/10/2018 10:16

Bearbehind

I disagree with literally everything you say

The eu is a supranational entity nibbling away at our ability for self governance

Bearbehind · 05/10/2018 10:18

10 no problem with you disagreeing but unless you explain why you are just being the GF I suspect you are actually striving to be.

Either put up or shut up.

UnnecessaryFennel · 05/10/2018 10:20

The eu is a supranational entity nibbling away at our ability for self governance

How?

1tisILeClerc · 05/10/2018 10:20

{Explain why surrendering our law and trade making ability is desirable}
UK laws as deemed necessary are harmonised with the EU. The UK can add or alter the terms as it wishes.

{Explain why uncontrollable fom is desirable}
It could have been controlled but wasn't, as you have been told so many times. GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD.

{Explain why ever closer union is desirable}
The UK had an opt out so it didn't HAVE to agree to further closer union.

{Explain why rule from foreign soil is desirable}
The UK never was under foreign rule although TRADING with anyone outside the UK has to follow rules as it is a joint decision. WTO rules are far more damaging than the agreements we have with the EU and 60 other countries as part of the EU.
Again you have been told this many times so stop being so dense.

prettybird · 05/10/2018 10:27

Every single one of 10's reasons don't actually apply to the UK-EU relationship, because they are falsehoods canards promulgated by the likes of the Daily Mail, Farage and JRM and believed by the credulous Confused

But they do apply to the Scotland - England UK relationship and explain why so many Scots want independence. We'd have more sovereignty and more of a say as part of the EU than we have at the moment with Westminster, where Scottish MPs were not even allowed to speak in a whole 10 minute debate about Scottish powers, before the English MPs traipsed in and voted to take the powers back Angry

But anyway, let's not one credulous person let his/her/their prejudices sidetrack reasoned discussion with soundbites and no real evidence.

Lonelycrab · 05/10/2018 10:28

10 so you disagree with almost all the perfectly well put points that bear has made...

But you can’t articulate why.

And the answer is to give unprecedented powers of “self governance” into the hands of those such as Johnson, Grease mug and DD? You’re a fool, imo.

Bearbehind · 05/10/2018 10:29

I appreciate that 10, and any other of her ilk are never going to admit it on here, but surely they must, at some point, think to themselves 'hang on, I can't actually think of any examples to support these sound bites I reel off'.

TheElementsSong · 05/10/2018 10:32

the world is divided into nation states

Great, you sound like an expert on the most optimal, historically valid and patriotic definition of nationhood.

So - which version of these lands is the one we are working with in defining "foreign undesirability"?

It's clear that the European Union falls very far outwith your definition of a natural union of states (perhaps because it is too historically recent being from the 20th century?).
As you clearly give no shits about NI, I presume your True United Kingdom is one which precedes the Act of Union 1800/1801?
How do you feel about Scotland being part of the UK - if you think they're IN, then it looks like we're reached the Act of Union 1707 as an approximate "latest" date.
How about further back, say when the Plantagenets ruled much of France - was that a valid nation state and France wasn't (shudder) foreign?
When the Normans invaded and of course never left, did they magically turn from foreign to TruePatriots?
How about when this island consisted of several warring Anglo-Saxon kingdoms?
How about when the Anglo-Saxons (from arrrgggh Europe) moved in and displaced native Britons?

Mrsr8 · 05/10/2018 10:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

10degreestostarboard · 05/10/2018 10:35

You fail to convince now as you failed in 2016

DGRossetti · 05/10/2018 10:36

As Nissan and BMW have shown, decisions made in the past aren't set in stone (yes, there was a subtext Grin) and are easily changed subsequently, if conditions change. So I don't really see much in a single companies position - Unilever - that means much more in a wider sense.

Better not mention that to the Brexiteers. They don't like to be reminded that all decisions can be changed for some reason. Larks tongues in aspic and all.

With that nod to Excalibur/Caliburn (and who remembers in the myths that Merlin said Arthur was a fool for thinking Excalibur was the prize, when in reality it was Excaliburs scabbard which was the real prize ????), a while back, the ever genial Francis Pryor was part of a programme investigating the Arthurian myth, and he noted that if historians had actually made the effort to see a bronze sword being cast, they'd be a little less puzzled as to the origins of the myth. (He's often noted that there's an awful lot in history presumed and supposed without actually doing ... he took up sheep farming to prove a point that had been dismissed academically. He proved it by example.)

In a society where smiths were already treated with suspicion/reverence/respect (smelting metal being a magical process to the average person) then the act of pulling a flaming (because the slag catches fire and burns brightly) sword from a mould, and immediately quenching it in water would most likely look - to a bystander - as if a burning sword had been pulled from the water.

Obviously any decent smith would use a lake if he worked near one.

(There's also the fascination our forebears had with water/land boundaries, and the deliberately placement of votive offerings; new -but broken - near the waters edge).

Maybe I should have done ANLM at Uni ? Instead I just devoured most tellings of Morte d'Arthur from Monmouth onwards. Including the Avalon Chronicles - a slightly feminist retelling by Marion Bradley Zimmer.

Of course, Arthur would have been a remainer, without doubt ....

10degreestostarboard · 05/10/2018 10:36

Mumsnet Brexit troll = leave voter

Is that correct?

DGRossetti · 05/10/2018 10:39

It's clear that the European Union falls very far outwith your definition of a natural union of states (perhaps because it is too historically recent being from the 20th century?).

And yet, on another thread, we were being told that Leavers voted without regard for history - it wasn't part of their motivation.

1tisILeClerc · 05/10/2018 10:39

{When the Normans invaded and of course never left}
Is that what it is, I keep hearing noises in the cellar, it must be some Normans!

prettybird · 05/10/2018 10:40

I did a dissertation on "L'Enchanteur Pourrisant" by Apollinaire as part of my degree (literally, "The Rotting Sorcerer"): an interesting re-telling of Merlin's story. Grin

MyBrexitGoesOnHoliday · 05/10/2018 10:41

10 could you explain to me why it is desirable to ruin the UK by doing something that NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, not even North Korea, is doing, Aka trying to survive with no commercial trade deal at all??

Could you also explain me how you think we will be fairing economically in the next 10 or 15 years (that’s how long it took to sign the trade deal between the eu and Canada for example) until we can have some trade deals?

And could you explain how we are going to get a deal with let’s say India when they want said deal to be attached to some sort of FOM agreement with the U.K.? When one of the ‘reasons’ to leave the EU is to stop the FOM?

Oh finally could you plain what the logic to do the opposite that every ciuntry in the world. We are getting OUT of one of the biggest group re trade deals when every other country is trying to get IN as many trade deals as possible?

My understanding is that they are all doing so becuase trade deals and free movement of people is GOOD for the economy and their country. So why doing exactly the opposite? I mean it just doesn’t make sense!!! (Unless you consider that every country in the world is wrong of course....)
Why in earth wouod you chose to put your country in such a situation??

MyBrexitGoesOnHoliday · 05/10/2018 10:47

One last comment to 10
People can and will change their minds.
That’s why when one party is elected one year they might well not be elected again at the following election (see TM last election for that).

So it’s inky fair to think that people may have voted for Brexit with a SMALL majority a couple of years ago. But wouod be voting AGAINST Brexit now.

A vote, even as a referendum, actually has shelf life.
And it’s not possible to just go on and on about ‘we Won so just get on with it’ several years later because it’s likely that the result will not be representative of the ‘will of the people’ anymore.
(On a personal level, You might of course keep those ideas. You just can’t say there are facts anymore and use them as validation anymore)

DGRossetti · 05/10/2018 10:50

Mumsnet Brexit troll = leave voter

For myself (although it seems to be extant) Leavers are not synonymous with Brexiteers. Leavers have cogent, reasoned, and valid arguments as to why they felt the UK is better off outside the EU. They can express these, and discuss them when counter arguments are made.

"Brexiteers" have no fucking clue (about anything it seems, at times) and their general output is a mashup of "We won","get over it", "Blue passports", "Nigel farage should be PM", "spitfires over dover", "blue passports", "taking back control", "control our own borders", etc etc etc. Basically morons. They can't be reasoned with because they literally have no reason. What reason do you need leave; leave; leave. Tell me why, I don't like Brexit ....

Sorry, back in the room.

I know quite a few leavers - as in people who vote leave after careful reasoning. Not a single one of them saw this coming, or wants whatever get served up, be it Canada, Chequers, or no deal.

I know a few Brexiteers who still think we'll go back to imperial measures after March next year (like the lady DW was chatting to in the flu jab queue yesterday ....)