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Brexit

Westministenders: “No Deal is Better Than a Bad Deal?”

991 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2018 23:25

The key phrase that was once parroted by all the lead Brexiteers, and repeated by their social media followers.

BUT curiously, it seems that those who once said it with such conviction seem to be backing away from it.

Take a lot around at who is saying it, and who no longer seem to be. Certainly not with the same force.

May, alone, seems to have decided to nail herself to the mast of No Deal is Better than a Bad Deal in her post Salzberg Toddler Strop. She seemed to be announcing that in practice No Deal was now official government policy, because the EU weren’t playing ball. It wasn’t an abandonment of Chequers but it seemed close to it.

But who else is still saying it? It would seem its only the die hards on twitter and the Nigel Farage / Arron Banks camp.

Not people with tangible power. Not people who have to actually vote on the matter. Apart from Theresa.

David Davis who at one point seemed to be saying it every other day, now seems - along with Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson - to have moved to a Canada Plus position. They don’t seem to be anywhere near so enthusiastic about a No Deal. The ERG as a whole largely seems to be backing off the idea, though if it happened, they probably wouldn’t be too upset. They just they are starting to see more risk than even than even they would like to hazard as a first choice, contained within No Deal. When No Deal is starting to be perceived as too risky for disaster capitalists, you might start to pay attention.

But nope. Not Theresa.

Theresa has very firmly got it into her head that this is her ‘Iron Lady’ moment. The rhetoric about not being for turning, is deliberately evocative to a certain group. She’s trying to get a deal like Thatcher got with the CAP from the EU. Except we’ve been there and done that and politically is that even an option for the EU to do that in our current political climate with Trump and the Rise of the Authoritarians.

May’s previous track record, also points to her stubborness going above and beyond the point where it is sensible - or even sane - to continue to pursue. She is pig headed to the point of spite. She takes things personally when things going against her. In the Home Office she took cases to appeal which defy all sense of logic and public interest purpose. Its been up to the courts to tell her no in, no uncertain terms before she has eventually stopped. And in some cases she ignored this. Its petty, its arrogant and right now it's a clear and present danger to the national interest.

The Cabinet who have remained loyal to May up to this point, are also starting to recognise the danger. The Times has reported that Raab, Gove, Hunt and Javid are in this camp and May can not necessarily rely on them. They are said to be leaning towards the ERG position.

The problem being that the DUP seem to be going in the opposite direction in leaning towards a softer Brexit. They label both Chequerers and Canada as unworkable. The reality of the border is kicking in, in the circle that matters. The DUP can not ignore nor underestimate the potential for rising support for a United Ireland.

Theresa as a committed Unionist is now very much at odds with the DUP.

May also is facing rebellion for a reported 40 MPs over Canada, according to Amber Rudd. Again they are pushing for a softer option.

In the background is the revised labour policy which now supports a People’s Vote, if they can’t force a General Election. They also won’t support a deal for May. It's something of a fudged position with limited effect, but it's a move to a softer position than previously. Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer, also is alleged to have challenged the leadership by saying Remain would be an option during the Labour conference. McDonnell has very much denied this.

In October 2016, it was said by Donald Tusk that it was a choice between a very Hard Brexit or No Brexit.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37650077

It was also said by the former Polish Finance Minister that Hard Brexit was the easiest political choice for both the UK and Europe.
www.straitstimes.com/opinion/the-political-logic-of-hard-brexit

For everything that has gone on in the last two years, these two points of view seem to be holding up better than the majority that any British commentator has come out with.

And whilst Theresa might now be the only one still saying no deal is better than a bad deal, she is perhaps the closest to the political reality of the dynamics of how everything is going.

Her Salzburg speech, definitely came from a mess of her own making, as she was unable and unwilling to take different political approaches and she lacked pragmatism and flexibility. But at the same time, where she is now is also a result of always being something of a hostage to political circumstance too.

Her speech can also be read as an inadvertent announcement and a warning of ‘accidental no deal’ because she does recognise that all alternative political solutions domestically are impossible to her and she can only be saved by the EU. That’s not taking back control. That’s begging for a way out and for the EU to solve British political problems, which they have always said they would not intervene in.

And isn’t that just the irony.

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BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 16:41

DG I wasn't saying prioritising profits is always a good thing;
merely that it is what businesses have to do, because of responsibility to their shareholders

< I was bitter over Kraft, but now in the land of Lindt, I'm laughing - choc firms here would never dare move to choc vomit, because they know consumers would stop buying, bringing losses not profits >

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 16:42

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/03/theresa-may-tory-conference-boris-johnson-marina-hyde

The story of this conference was one of a government unable to remotely fill the main hall for its cabinet speakers, while activists queued round the block for fringe events protesting against its central policy.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 16:46

btw, DG this supine acceptance of lower quality food - which follows on from our farm discussion yesterday -
is why the ordinary UK consumer - not the wealthy - would accept the chlorine chicken and hormone-laden beef,

whereas there would be a bloody revolution in France - and refusal in other E27 countries - if the govt tried to push that muck onto the dinner plates of ordinary folk.

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 16:58

DG I wasn't saying prioritising profits is always a good thing; merely that it is what businesses have to do, because of responsibility to their shareholders

But it is possible to temper that against a wider social and environmental background - as I believe the Dutch (who really started the whole idea anyway) do. Whether or not that means a country is less - or more - "open for business" as Cameron said when he deflected any government involvement in Kraft/Cadbury I don't know.

The problem is almost all (and I said that to avoid googling for any exceptions) public companies treat laws as either targets, or baselines. So if a government says that it's illegal to pay less than then - surprise surprise - wages start at .

All of that said, I'm of the opinion that capitalism is fatally flawed, and maybe we are seeing it starting to fail. Simply because it's a mathematical and physical and environmental impossibility to have "growth" year on year indefinitely. At some point something has to run out.

Because I'm not a moronic, cretinous Brexiteer, I tend to read and listen to a lot of diverse views. I say that because for one brief moment Nigel Farage made what I consider a good point, that wasn't really picked up on, and which still hasn't really been answered. It was quite a while pre-referendum, and someone noted that we needed immigration to drive economic growth. He asked why we needed growth and why we couldn't accept where we were and not need immigrants.

Now discounting his motivation for posing the question, it's still an interesting one. And if indefinite (and therefore infinite) growth is not a realistic or viable proposition, then wither us ?

Previously we've had recessions which shrunk us, back, from which to grow again. And I recall in the 1980s and then 2000s, people asking if boom to bust was inevitable. I also recall some politicians claiming they had conquered the cycle of boom and bust forever.

Ultimately these are much more important questions for where the UKs future lies than the colour of our fucking passports. But when you struggle with critical thinking as Brexiteers do, I guess you have to have something to "think" about.

Incidentally the conservatives are not, and have never been business friendly. Ironically the one thing Boris said which was 100% true and historically accurate was "fuck business".

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 17:07

btw, DG this supine acceptance of lower quality food - which follows on from our farm discussion yesterday - is why the ordinary UK consumer - not the wealthy - would accept the chlorine chicken and hormone-laden beef,

As long as it's cheap Sad.

After all, why would a farmer waste precious effort growing beautifully delicious "Sungold" tomatoes, when for the same outlay (or even less) they can grow some watery bland tasteless shit which weighs 3x as much, and which the supermarkets know will fly off the shelves.

No reason. Which is why they don't. You want "Sungold", you buy seeds.

(By the way don't bother with "Sunblush", "Supersweet", "Sugardrop" or any other similar sounding varietal - they're all bland).

Growing up, we used to laugh at DFs views on UK fruit and veg. Then we travelled to Italy, and were never the same.

Peregrina · 03/10/2018 17:13

Incidentally the conservatives are not, and have never been business friendly.

So how come they have got that reputation then? I am genuinely baffled.

1tisILeClerc · 03/10/2018 17:16

Business manager or shareholder perhaps, rather than the people who get their hands dirty?

MyBrexitGoesOnHoliday · 03/10/2018 17:20

btw, this supine acceptance of lower quality food is why the ordinary UK consumer - not the wealthy - would accept the chlorine chicken and hormone-laden beef,p

I’m going to be harsh but lower quality food isn’t the only thing uk consumers/citizens are happy to accept. Supine acceptance is thé default position.

Just see what’s going in fracking atm.
The government is pushing for it even though everyone is against it. People who are protesting are been out into jail for voicing their disagreement (first time since 1932 I believe that someone has been jailed for their ideas ....)
And people living near fracking sites are just accepting whatever the government is doing ‘because they will always win anyway’ (my SIl is living about 300m away for. One of those and can’t understand why some people are desperately protesting against it, trying to protect her, her dcs and the price of her house....)

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 17:23

So how come they have got that reputation then? I am genuinely baffled.

Because they tell us they are, and they own the media ? Also, maybe relative to Labour - especially the Labour of the 60s and 70s ...

My DF wanted to set up his own business (and did) the second he came to the UK in 1963. Nothing about conservative governments (or Labour ones) made anything any easier. (In fact, in 1991, things got worse for a couple of years as - courtesy of BCCI - every set of accounts needed a full audit. That was £3,000 gone like that).

durgha · 03/10/2018 17:38

MyBrexit, fracking held back in Scotland, so far.

jasjas1973 · 03/10/2018 17:45

She is still a fuggin liar!

Came out with "Austerity is over" omitting that the next round of spending cuts are still to come over the next 2 years and that there is another £12 billion to come off Welfare.

A Cheetah doesn't change its spots!

GD12 · 03/10/2018 17:53

A no deal Brexit is beyond insane. The ramifications are terrifying. TM is dancing as she's about to destroy the country. I despair.

Thomasinaa · 03/10/2018 17:59

Our political system is completely broken. Is there any way back from this?

mostdays · 03/10/2018 17:59

I think that because a no deal Brexit is utterly insane and something no one with an ounce of sense would choose, most people in this country believe that it won't actually happen. Remainer types hold out hope that it won't happen because the HoC will look into the abyss and decide jumping in would be a bad idea after all (and so will arrange a 2nd ref and ask for an art 50 extension etc etc). Leaver types think that the EU are the ones who will blink, because after all we are the great people of Great Britain who everyone admires Grin and respects Grin Grin and values Grin Grin grin] so much that they will do anything at all to be our friends.

PCPlumsTruncheon · 03/10/2018 18:00

These made me laugh. And then I cried.

Westministenders: “No Deal is Better Than a Bad Deal?”
Westministenders: “No Deal is Better Than a Bad Deal?”
Westministenders: “No Deal is Better Than a Bad Deal?”
BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 18:04

"Yes, Prime Minister" was much more fun to watch in the 1980s, than it is to experience in real life in 2018.

GD12 · 03/10/2018 18:06

Does anyone watch the "3blokesinapub" vids on YouTube? They're great, especially Jason Hunter an ex trade negotiator. They're great vids but terrifying on what would happen in the event of a no deal Brexit.

mathanxiety · 03/10/2018 18:07

The students might get the required results to get into oxbridge but the schools cannot develop the skills they need to get them through entrance exams and interviews.

The UK needs Ireland's Central Applications Office system.

Leaving Cert exam results plus application form indicating ten course choices in order of preference go in one end, each grade in each subject in the LC is given a certain number of points, and course allocation comes out the other. Where you go depends on the points you earn in your top six subjects.

You do not apply directly to any particular university or college.

Nobody knows or cares what secondary school you went to.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Applications_Office

1tisILeClerc · 03/10/2018 18:08

At least Yes Prime Minister had a 'happy' ending.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 18:11

Guy Verhofstadtt@guyverhofstadt (Brexit Coordinator for @Europarl*_EN #IAmEuropean)

On Brexit, we will never accept discrimination based on skills and nationality.
We will never accept an extension on article 50.
Enough mess has been created by Brexit. Let's stop it!
We will never undermine the principles of our Union to rescue the Tory party

Guy Verhofstadt*@guyverhofstadt*
While dancing to ABBA today, PM May overlooked the fact that Bjorn from ABBA called Brexit a “disaster”

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 18:16

Note that he says that the EU would never accept an A50 extension

imo, they now dread the thought of Brexit being cancelled and a bitterly divided UK remaining a member,
with Farage, Hunt & Bojo et al continuing to spout their poisonous war talk.

They've had enough and just want rid of the UK

Also this Le Figaro opinion:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/vox/monde/2018/09/30/31002-20180930ARTFIG00109-jacques-julliard-pour-sauver-l-europe-osons-la-francallemagne.php?redirectpremiumm_
_
[translation]_
"If the departure of the Brits is a sadness, their return would be a catastrophe"

Thomasinaa · 03/10/2018 18:50

I hope that Nicola Sturgeon is making all the right noises toward the EU - doing what she can to ensure that Scotland doesn't completely lose its reputation along with England. May just be able to apply for re-admission as an independent Scotland. Very much a Plan B though.

woman11017 · 03/10/2018 19:21

Interesting item on this on Channel 4 news.

After the verdict, Palmer’s widow criticised “lax security” at tWestminster. Michelle Palmer said her husband was left “alone, unarmed, guarding an open gate

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/03/coroner-summing-up-westminster-attack-inquest

colouringinpro · 03/10/2018 20:14

May dancing = Nero fiddling

AngryAngryAngry

BackInTime · 03/10/2018 20:39

Can anyone explain how TM is able to declare an end to austerity when she has no idea where our economy is heading?