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Brexit

Westministenders: “No Deal is Better Than a Bad Deal?”

991 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2018 23:25

The key phrase that was once parroted by all the lead Brexiteers, and repeated by their social media followers.

BUT curiously, it seems that those who once said it with such conviction seem to be backing away from it.

Take a lot around at who is saying it, and who no longer seem to be. Certainly not with the same force.

May, alone, seems to have decided to nail herself to the mast of No Deal is Better than a Bad Deal in her post Salzberg Toddler Strop. She seemed to be announcing that in practice No Deal was now official government policy, because the EU weren’t playing ball. It wasn’t an abandonment of Chequers but it seemed close to it.

But who else is still saying it? It would seem its only the die hards on twitter and the Nigel Farage / Arron Banks camp.

Not people with tangible power. Not people who have to actually vote on the matter. Apart from Theresa.

David Davis who at one point seemed to be saying it every other day, now seems - along with Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson - to have moved to a Canada Plus position. They don’t seem to be anywhere near so enthusiastic about a No Deal. The ERG as a whole largely seems to be backing off the idea, though if it happened, they probably wouldn’t be too upset. They just they are starting to see more risk than even than even they would like to hazard as a first choice, contained within No Deal. When No Deal is starting to be perceived as too risky for disaster capitalists, you might start to pay attention.

But nope. Not Theresa.

Theresa has very firmly got it into her head that this is her ‘Iron Lady’ moment. The rhetoric about not being for turning, is deliberately evocative to a certain group. She’s trying to get a deal like Thatcher got with the CAP from the EU. Except we’ve been there and done that and politically is that even an option for the EU to do that in our current political climate with Trump and the Rise of the Authoritarians.

May’s previous track record, also points to her stubborness going above and beyond the point where it is sensible - or even sane - to continue to pursue. She is pig headed to the point of spite. She takes things personally when things going against her. In the Home Office she took cases to appeal which defy all sense of logic and public interest purpose. Its been up to the courts to tell her no in, no uncertain terms before she has eventually stopped. And in some cases she ignored this. Its petty, its arrogant and right now it's a clear and present danger to the national interest.

The Cabinet who have remained loyal to May up to this point, are also starting to recognise the danger. The Times has reported that Raab, Gove, Hunt and Javid are in this camp and May can not necessarily rely on them. They are said to be leaning towards the ERG position.

The problem being that the DUP seem to be going in the opposite direction in leaning towards a softer Brexit. They label both Chequerers and Canada as unworkable. The reality of the border is kicking in, in the circle that matters. The DUP can not ignore nor underestimate the potential for rising support for a United Ireland.

Theresa as a committed Unionist is now very much at odds with the DUP.

May also is facing rebellion for a reported 40 MPs over Canada, according to Amber Rudd. Again they are pushing for a softer option.

In the background is the revised labour policy which now supports a People’s Vote, if they can’t force a General Election. They also won’t support a deal for May. It's something of a fudged position with limited effect, but it's a move to a softer position than previously. Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer, also is alleged to have challenged the leadership by saying Remain would be an option during the Labour conference. McDonnell has very much denied this.

In October 2016, it was said by Donald Tusk that it was a choice between a very Hard Brexit or No Brexit.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37650077

It was also said by the former Polish Finance Minister that Hard Brexit was the easiest political choice for both the UK and Europe.
www.straitstimes.com/opinion/the-political-logic-of-hard-brexit

For everything that has gone on in the last two years, these two points of view seem to be holding up better than the majority that any British commentator has come out with.

And whilst Theresa might now be the only one still saying no deal is better than a bad deal, she is perhaps the closest to the political reality of the dynamics of how everything is going.

Her Salzburg speech, definitely came from a mess of her own making, as she was unable and unwilling to take different political approaches and she lacked pragmatism and flexibility. But at the same time, where she is now is also a result of always being something of a hostage to political circumstance too.

Her speech can also be read as an inadvertent announcement and a warning of ‘accidental no deal’ because she does recognise that all alternative political solutions domestically are impossible to her and she can only be saved by the EU. That’s not taking back control. That’s begging for a way out and for the EU to solve British political problems, which they have always said they would not intervene in.

And isn’t that just the irony.

OP posts:
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MyBrexitUnicornDied · 03/10/2018 13:23

I hate to say it but TM did well

She did way better than I thought. Even managed to look human.

I’m sure she said something about “if we argue about getting the best Brexit possible we risk no Brexit at all” (I’m pretty sure I’ve quoted that wrong.

Is this back me or I’ll cancel Brexit? I’m an eternal optimist - I’ll wait for someone to push me back to horrid horrid reality in a minute 😀

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2018 13:29

"No Brexit at all"

She's either referring to cancelling it completely
or
Well have to accept a Beano which isn't Brexit.

That she hasn't clarified which it is, is probably a deliberate slight of hand for two different audiences.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 13:37

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/03/tories-conference-vision-brexit-voters-eu

It takes 48 letters from MPs to the chairman of the backbench 1922 committee to trigger a ballot that she would probably win.

It is a measure of the hardliners’ cowardice and cynicism that they do not want to replace their leader, but bully her into delivering Brexit on their terms.

Then they can dispose of her (and blame her when nothing turns out as promised).

prettybird · 03/10/2018 13:44

Liked Adam Boulton's tweet:

@adamboultonSKY
Central Message of well crafted @theresa_may speech. No change. We press on with Chequers #Brexit approach. Corbyn is a menace. That’s it.

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 14:03

Many years ago, I hypothesised that there were 2 separate departments in Microsoft.

One was devoted to preventing piracy, and came up with all sorts of measures, and lobbied governments etc etc.

The others task was the exact opposite - how to ensure Microsoft products were as easy as possible to pirate, as all those illegal copies of Windows and Office (this WfW and Office '95 days) were being used by students who would then go on to work and buy Microsoft.

I wonder if Tory policies are going through the same process. Because no employer in their right mind wants to invest in their own staff if they can help it. It seems one part of the Tory party has been tasked to promote policies that another part have no intention of signing up to ...

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 14:12

Andrew Livingston@andylivingston
Comms person: "People liked the dancing and hate that you're a fing robot. Remember that."
May walks out doing robot dance
Comms person buries head in hands.

derxa · 03/10/2018 14:16

Because no employer in their right mind wants to invest in their own staff if they can help it. Really?

1tisILeClerc · 03/10/2018 14:24

{ 2 separate departments in Microsoft.}
You mean like the government press office, and it's alter ego, the 'department for leaks'?

woman11017 · 03/10/2018 14:28

I wonder if Tory policies are going through the same process
Reverse statements for truth.
Freedom of Movement is Fascistic, Getting a Good Deal is a Crash Out. Starvation is Plenty. etc etc. Wink

from 'Totalitarian Catch phrases for Tories' p45.

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 14:29

Because no employer in their right mind wants to invest in their own staff if they can help it.

Really?

This is a Brexit thread - hyperbole not an option Grin.

Trying to sell Brexit by pretending that all of a sudden everything that's wrong with UK society will magically be fixed is a tad dishonest.

No amount of Brexit bullshit is going to suddenly make employers pay a fair wage, and treat their staff as valued resources yah di dah, yah di dah. If an employer was doing that before, they're likely to carry on. If they weren't, then Brexit won't change that. Which is why are seeing firms upping sticks and fucking off to base themselves in the EU - surely they should remain in the UK, and upskill UK staff ?

woman11017 · 03/10/2018 14:31

On the IT thing, isn't that just current batch of capitalism? Built in obsolescence and glitch model.
Isn't it possible to make cars, washing machines, light bulbs, bags, which have life spans of decades, they don't because......

lonelyplanetmum · 03/10/2018 14:33

I think humour is inappropriate for the mess we are in and the increasing X factor approach to party conferences is embarrassing.

However I reluctantly concede that coming onto the stage to ABBA's Dancing Queen almost ensures a good start for any one. You'd probably applaud Fred and Rosemary West if they'd came up on stage to Dancing Queen.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 14:34

Business rarely puts political ideology over their duty to their shareholders to make profits.

Those who do find themselves either presiding over a broke business, or over their own P45.

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 14:35

Business rarely puts political ideology over their duty to their shareholders to make profits.

Ask Cadburys.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 14:37

I thought Cadbury's had prioritised profit, which is why they introduced their vomit-tasting US-style chocolate,
which keeps longer

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2018 14:38

Interesting AIBU poll on Boris vs Theresa:

Apart from a couple who just likes Boris for his jokes, there are very few MNers who seem to prefer Boris.
He seems past his use-by date, except for the Brexit Ultras who don't mind imbibing spoiled produce

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 14:57

I thought Cadbury's had prioritised profit

They did. But I was referring (see how quick people forget ?) to the Kraft takeover. The whole reason Cadbury basically had to agree to it, was because their directors had a duty to deliver best-profit to shareholders (of whom the institutional ones had a similar duty to their investors). This made it very difficult to reject the Kraft bid.

At the time, there was a lot of handwringing and wailing and people (try and find them now, for a laugh) saying the government should have stopped it etc etc.

But ultimately, that's the price you pay when you make "business easy". Light touch government interference - and certainly not arbitrary.

To this day, I can't really get my head around leveraged buy-outs. I mean I've got a few quid in jar somewhere. Why can't I use it to buy Facebook ?

I preferred Galaxy to Cadbury anyway. And since the great awakening, chocolate is dead to me anyway. As are nearly all confections.

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 15:09

So presumably ABBA - the well known European pop group - were consulted over the use of their tune ? It would be pretty bad if it turned out that they would rather it wasn't associated with politics. Or a certain type of politics.

(Googles)

oh ... dear

www.dp-news.com/en/detail.aspx?articleid=55682#ixzz5SsQIlZBd&w

What is it with right-wing crap political parties that they assume everything is up for grabs.

1tisILeClerc · 03/10/2018 15:17

{"Abba never allows its music to be used in a political context. This is something that we have pointed out to the Danish People's Party."
Universal Music later said no legal action would be taken as an agreement had been reached. }
Oh dear indeed!
Maybe she should have used the 'Funky Chicken' instead? It would also tie in nicely with the chlorinated variety, coming to a supermarket near you soon.

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 15:28

I sincerely hope ABBA (or their record company) ask for an apology, and a clarification of their views.

I'm old enough to remember when Reagan used "Born in the USA" for rallies ... he should really have listened to it first.

Dadaist · 03/10/2018 15:39

Unfortunately there really isn’t a pick and mix option around membership of the European Union. It’s founding principles were freedom of movement for goods, services and people. You can’t allow the stuff and the money and not allow the people the same freedoms.

It has anyway always been insanely ignorant when looking at immigration levels in the UK to look to the EU as some kind of ‘problem’ or that open boarders are a ‘threat.’

Let’s put it this way - there are no borders within the UK - and (a random example..) Nottingham has a completely open border with the rest of the country. So, right now, sixty million Britons have the absolute right to decend on Nottingham and demand benefits and there is nothing to stop them! If you said that often enough - some ‘Nottingham defence league’ would spring up, point to crime statistics committed by people from outside the area and want to build a wall. It’s how humans evolved to first think. It’s more emotive than rational but it’s no less powerful for that. In the end - no one is moving to Nottingham unless there is a job for them - and if there is - what is your problem? They’ll be paying their taxes and contributing to the cost of local and national services.
I think it’s worth considering a list of the kind of ‘unskilled’ work that people think locals could do instead - if only they paid better...a Pharmacist, haematologist, dietician, physiotherapist, ophthalmologist,
Speech therapist, psychologist, biomedical scientist. Yup - they are all classed as unskilled low paid employment - and without EU workers - they will not really be filled by the unskilled unemployed - and wages won’t increase- but health service waiting times will grow.
Slow hand clap for the Brexit NHS!

BlueEyeshadow · 03/10/2018 15:56

I just filled in this survey citing Brexit as my biggest worry for my DC's future...

BackInTime · 03/10/2018 16:02

Personally I was a bit offended at TM dance efforts considering the absolute shit storm we are facing. I am certain that these images will be a great source of amusement in Europe and further her demands to be treated with respect.

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 16:05

Personally I was a bit offended at TM dance efforts

Not as offended as I suspect Benny and Bjorn will be ... seems a bit of a twitter storm is brewing - a lot of people criticising the Tories for stealing music they knew they weren't entitled to ...

Perhaps a donation to #PeoplesVote might be the price ?

ShinyElena · 03/10/2018 16:30

Oh, my God. Marina Hyde just pointed out what we are in for in 2022 (other than Brexit): election, Brexit festival and Qatar 2022. I am going to hide in a bunker for year.

Theresa May v the 'Great Twatsby' at the Tories’ Groundhog conference

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/03/theresa-may-tory-conference-boris-johnson-marina-hyde?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard