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Brexit

Not the Brexit Arms again

608 replies

Bearbehind · 18/09/2018 19:34

I'm guessing surfer won't start another thread as the questions were getting a bit difficult on the last one. 😂

Thought this was worthy of discussion though

So it turns out those pesky EU immigrants actually contribute more than the average UK citizen.

Who knew 🤔

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surferjet · 20/09/2018 19:25

👍😘

KennDodd · 20/09/2018 22:57

One thing that puzzles me about the 'People's Vote' is when people argue against it saying it's undemocratic. I can see you might argue it's unwise to have another vote but don't get the argument that its undemocratic, maybe somebody could explain that for me?

surferjet · 20/09/2018 22:59

It’s all over my friend.
2nd ref on the way. 100%
Remain will win.
The country is fucked forever.

Oh well WineSmile

Morethanthisprovincallife · 21/09/2018 07:52

Bear there is far more chance that immigrants going through a proper entry process, coming to the UK with jobs that the UK needs will contribute to the UK.

Unfortunately many immigrants have not meaningfully contributed to the UK at all because there has been an off set between the need for a car washer, the contribution to our economy that car washer makes. Off set by the social issues caused by too many people crammed into one house.

Police attendance, social workers, the cost of violence to NHS. Many people have seen such things so trying to tell them that every single immigrant needs to be here is rubbish.

I don't blame anyone for bettering their lives. My goodness if we could raise our family up and go somewhere else to earn vastly more for doing the same job we would do it.
That's not thier responsibility. It's our governments responsibility to make sure any immigration benefits the UK.
I don't think fee movement of people benefits the UK it doesn't work for us

It makes sense in mainland Europe!! I can see why it makes sense there, but... Even so maybe it doesn't make security sense, maybe it doesn't work on other levels?

I'd much rather equal open immigration from the whole world.
We managed to survive before working rights were dropped by Blair. We have never needed the levels of immigration that we have now.
Talking about pesky immigrations really turns people off discussing anything.
My own family is multi cultural, we are spread round the world lived in many other countries. This was mainly before workers stuff dropped and when you could only move and live somewhere else if you had something they needed.

We have no records, idea of the massive under the radar immigration to the UK at all. So those relying on stats just show how woefully out of touch they are on this issue.

frumpety · 21/09/2018 07:53

Mrs May keeps saying no second vote , is it a bit like when a club says they totally support a football manager only for them to be sacked the following week ?

Is there actually enough time for a second vote ?

Morethanthisprovincallife · 21/09/2018 07:59

Surfer... I don't think second referendum will happen.

One has to remember the delegation led by Blair going all around the eu begging leaders to make it hard so they can get that second referendum.

TM certainly isn't going to give one.
Just seen chukka on TV, he has a fervent remainer. I look at him Moaning about brexit... It wasn't supposed to be like this and yet he, many politicians and civil servants who are renainers are largely to blame.

They have done nothing meaningful to get on with this. They have dragged their feet Moaning. So when they sit there on tv Moaning about it, I think we would be further along if you had got on with it.

We really need a brexiteer at the helm to get us through, get best deal for UK... Then revert back to whoever.

Moussemoose · 21/09/2018 08:02

Individuals won't decide if we have a second referendum parliament will.

If the Brexit deal is rejected and there is a potential vote of no confidence then a GE or Ref 2 May become inevitable.

bellinisurge · 21/09/2018 08:07

@Morethanthisprovincallife - you do know that "making a good deal" requires two sides, don't you. And if even the Chequers deal is too radical for the EU, then May has to compromise on it. Towards the EU. If you don't like the Chequers deal, there really is no alternative but sub- Chequers or crash out. Even if the EU moved on the stuff it doesn't like its "move " is to accept more of Chequers .
We're into "it would've been brilliant if I'd done it ". But no one else is doing it so there empty words and posturing are worth shit.

KennDodd · 21/09/2018 08:08

Why do people always ignore the fact that FOM is a two way street. We benefit hugely from life enhancing experiences it gives us. I went to Lapland a few years ago, at the hotel and running the activities were young people from all over Europe. I'd say about 50% were from the UK the rest were from all over Europe. They were all having such a great time. It made me really sad to think that in future young people from the UK won't be able to have experiences like this. Now I know somebody is going to come along and ridicule the young people wanting to do stuff like this, call them drug dealers (it's happened before) but these are opportunities open to everybody, it doesn't matter how posh or not you are. I think it's really sad we are stripping our young people of these chances and that's ignoring all the other opportunities an EU passport gives us.

Fawful · 21/09/2018 08:28

I* don't blame anyone for bettering their lives. My goodness if we could raise our family up and go somewhere else to earn vastly more for doing the same job we would do it. *

Ffs, I don't know what kind of imaginary EU citizen you have in mind when you write this?
Most EU citizens have come here for fun, with a spring in their step, and with the mindset that this was one of 27 other countries they could work in.
The MAC report disagrees that EU immigration has had a negative impact in this country, do you know something they don't? Maybe get in touch with them and let them know?

KennDodd · 21/09/2018 08:37

Surfer... I don't think second referendum will happen

I don't either but perhaps somebody could explain to me why it would be undemocratic if it did? People talk about the 'Will of the people's being overturned but surely of a second vote resulted in remain then that would then be the 'will of the people'?

1tisILeClerc · 21/09/2018 08:46

The financial 'burden' of being in the EU is around 0.7 % of GDP for which anyone gains a whole raft of 'benefits' (not strictly financial).
All 'ills' of the UK are entirely down to the UK government (of all flavours) having failed to ensure a reasonable quality of life for all, which is their job.
Leavers may want to be miserable moaning gits but to make the possibility of our children to have wonderful lives in the wider world more difficult is unforgiveable.
The world is full of opportunities.

Peregrina · 21/09/2018 09:09

We really need a brexiteer at the helm to get us through, get best deal for UK..
Why haven't you got one then?It's up to you Leavers to get your person in place. Leasdom and Gove both put up for the job. Johnson ran away to play cricket.

As for "it's all the fault of 'remoaners'". What tosh. If you leave a club because you don't like paying for what it offers, you set to and build your own club - you don't whine that the people who are happy enough with the club aren't rolling up their sleeves to help you build an alternative. Leavers won, get on with the job. May has made such a mess, you have had ample opportunities to get a Leave PM in position.

frumpety · 21/09/2018 09:22

DH said this morning that he can't decide if May is incredibly stupid or incredibly clever.

frumpety · 21/09/2018 09:27

So leavers voted for something and now it is the fault of the people who didn't vote for it that it is going badly ?

Out of interest Morethan who do you think would be better at negotiating the UK's Brexit position ?

jasjas1973 · 21/09/2018 09:29

Just seen chukka on TV, he has a fervent remainer. I look at him Moaning about brexit... It wasn't supposed to be like this and yet he, many politicians and civil servants who are remainers are largely to blame

You still don't get it do you?
There is no good deal to be had, we are leaving the EU, we can no longer have continued access to the SM or the frictionless trade of the CU, as May specified that leaving both as her "red lines" this will completely screw our JIT manufacturing base, putting 100s of 1000s of jobs at risk, this is May's choice not some ex Labour has-been.

We can negotiate access to many of the EU programs that we benefit from, security or education but its the Governments in fighting that has led to this mess.

prettybird · 21/09/2018 09:51

"Nothing has changed, NOTHING has changed"

Repeat ad nauseum with rising notes of hysteria Hmm

1tisILeClerc · 21/09/2018 10:10

@frumpety
It has to be incredibly stupid.

On the basis that the UK is already on a downward trajectory, even though there may appear to be a 'bump' up before the real downward path. There is a name for that curve, not Bessel, which is maximally flat but one that peaks up before hurtling downwards. Spending now to 'avoid' shortages will steepen the fall afterwards.
No one of any flavour has said that anything will actually improve after Brexit and when you have both Mr Hammond and the head of the IMF saying the UK is going down, with firm stance of the EU saying the UK is now 'out of ongoing favours' so it will cost.

prettybird · 21/09/2018 10:19

The EU has typically cost 0.7% of UK GDP.

It's already cost the UK that and more Sadin significantly reduced growth compared to the rest of the EU, reduction in FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) and set up costs within the Government.

So exactly where is this money that is supposed to be freed up to be spent on the poorest and most vulnerable in society supposed to come from? Confused

woman11017 · 21/09/2018 11:18

The EU has typically cost 0.7% of UK GDP.
prettybird do you have the weekly costs per person? I'm sure I saw it as being a 75p.

1tisILeClerc · 21/09/2018 11:23

@woman
I thought it was under £200 a year so that sounds about right.
In any case why do you need to be accurate, the government doesn't do 'details'.
I would suspect the EU website will tell you but you may not have a day to waste trawling through it all.

1tisILeClerc · 21/09/2018 11:25

if you think of it as around the cost of car insurance, or less it is pretty good value.

woman11017 · 21/09/2018 11:36

Or less than 2 Aero bars a week. Blush

LouiseCollins28 · 21/09/2018 12:10

@KennDodd
The referendum on EU membership was held on 23/06/2016, fully 41 years after the last referendum, with the UK having been a member of EEC/EC/EU for those 41 years.

On referendum day in 2016, more people voted to Leave the EU than voted to Remain a member. Consequently, the UK should “Leave” given that this is what a majority of those voting on that day decided to vote in favour of doing.

Those who want to have another referendum now or in 2019 are perfectly entitled to advocate for that. Those who do not want another are equally entitled to advocate for not having one.

Where I think it becomes undemocratic is in 2 senses. First, we have yet to enact the decision of the previous referendum (i.e. the 2016 one.) Also, we have not allowed a meaningful period of time (40 years say) to evaluate the impact of that decision.

Second, those who are advocating for a second referendum are only doing so because they wish to overturn the result of the first.

My take on this is that actually, a second referendum (while I don’t want one) isn’t unacceptable per se, but a second referendum where “Remain a member of the EU” is an option is unacceptable, because this outcome has already been rejected in June 2016.

surferjet · 21/09/2018 13:44

What is she going to say?

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