OK, lets put it this way, what do we want done?

[Clairetree1]

Its all going so badly and everyone is worried, but what can be done?

Do we want another referendum and the whole Brexit thing aborted? Do we want another leader doing something different? Do we think Teresa May is doing everything that can be done?

I say "do we think" but to be honest, I don't think anything either way of Teresa May, I don't know what to think.

I don't know what could make things better at this stage

UnnecessaryFennel ive broke nothing, you can thank the government for that

So how do we get a government that invest in public services you vote in general elections for one. How on earth will Brexit get you a government that invests in public services? The two are totally unconnected.
Seriously, I think you must be taking the piss. How can this not be clear to you?

You broke it by voting for Brexit.

golondrina no government has invested in the las t20 years, so which party to vote for ?

Yes my one massive vote made all the difference, have a word with your self

Oh, so all of a sudden it IS the govt's fault? I thought it was the bullying EU and all those nasty layabout immigrants who clog up GP surgeries and hospital beds (whilst simultaneously taking jobs that could go to 'caring' Brits).

Imagine my surprise.

UnnecessaryFennel, if it is help to find the answer how do we get the government to do better, if its not going to change while still in the EU.
IF the EU will not give us a deal it will effect you as well, as I said SO MANY times its not the immigrants its the system (, round and round in circles we go)

How will leaving the EU help? Why will any government (especially the current Tory govt) invest more? With what money as their own reports say the economy will be damaged by Brexit?

Everyone who voted Brexit needs to own it. You made the decision to break it, we're not all in it together.

how do we get the government to do better, if its not going to change while still in the EU. how will leaving help? Specific answers please, not soundbites.

The EU is not required to 'give us a deal'. That phrase encapsulates everything that is wrong with the Brexiteers' attitude. They are not obliged to give us anything that is outwith their standard rules and deals. Nothing at all. We have decided to leave, to wave goodbye, to stick two fingers up at them. They are required to give us precisely nothing.

Leaving the EU will probably not materially affect me that much, to be honest. I have a secure job and home with a decent income and a bit of money in the bank (might move some of it into euros though). So in those sorts of terms I'm damn lucky. But will fuck up the country in other ways and screw the economy and it will fuck up people who have less than I do and it will make general life just that bit harder, at best, for my DC and for yours.

Doesn't it worry you that even the govt is no longer trying to pretend it's going to be fine? Don't you ever, even for a minute, wonder if you've been had?

And as for 'we can rebuild together' - well quite frankly, fuck off with that shite. You broke it, you rebuild it.

Damn right fennel

I think rosstac was actually referring to my 'burning the village down' analogy but the principle is exactly the same.

golondrina As i keep asking how will it change, its getting worse and we are in the EU , How do we make the government change ?

None of you seem to hold the government responsible for taking you out of the EU, with what looks like a no Deal, but the EU like every deal to go to the last minute,
As I keep saying I am still happy with my vote, I was asked a question and gave an answer, its up to the government what they do with my answer ,they could have told me to stick up my ass if they had chosen to.

You get involved in politics, you vote in elections, if you don't like the parties you get involved in activism, local campaigns, whatever...but voting to leave the EU doesn't change how our national government invests in services. That's like, I don't like the way the brownie leader runs my kid's brownie pack so she's never going to any more extra curricular activities again. Nobody loses but you. Nothing changes for you, you just removed yourself from something beneficial but unconnected to what you don't like.

rosstac I'm struggling to think of many more analogies to make you understand your list of issues have nothing to do with being in or out of the EU because it's so fucking obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Going back to the health club analogy. What you are saying is that you are disappointed with the services and choices at your local supermarket so you are going to renounce your gym membership.

The 2 things are entirely unconnected.

How can you not understand that?

"You broke it, you rebuild it."
My thoughts exactly.

golondrina Vote for who, the last 3 governments, have been a let down

What's that got to do with the EU?

No connection with the EU. You were manipulated. Face it.

Here's an interesting one. If you're angry with government, Rosstac, would you sign this petition?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/223859

rosstac I'm struggling to think of many more analogies to make you understand your list of issues have nothing to do with being in or out of the EU because it's so fucking obvious to anyone with half a brain.

She's never going to get it, Brexit defies logic, it's like a religion and works on emotion not facts, even Aaron Banks has admitted as much. 2+2=5.

@KennDodd

Yes, that's right. It's "System 1" processing if you've read Daniel Kahneman. The journey to "System 2" for some is just too difficult so there is not point.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

"golondrina no government has invested in the las t20 years, so which party to vote for ?"

That is a lie. The Labour government invested heavily in its people. What did you think the money was spent on?

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-angell/labour-government_b_15933752.html

"record investment in the National Health Service, a national minimum wage, civil partnerships, millions lifted out of poverty, doubling the aid and education budgets, the Human Rights Act, Sure Start, the Good Friday agreement, a record fall in homelessness. It was a government that every social democrat should be proud of."

Say what you like about Blair, he did more of what people like Rosstac claim to want.

Austerity is a lie, peddled by people with an ideological interest (and personal financial interest often too) in massively cutting back the welfare state. Countries don't work like private homes, the economics are not the same. It is not good economics to "cutback" and "live within our means", instead of austerity, governments should borrow at those times because the cost of borrowing is low. That borrowing is used to fund infrastructure projects (like the ones you claim to want) and this creates work, which imrpoves the economy.

Look at Portugal's socialist government: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/24/austerity-lie-deep-cuts-economy-portugal-socialist

and read The Austerity Delusion www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion it's a long read but worth it.

golondrina And left the country bankrupt with the famous note left, sorry there is no money,

The Government is borrowing £250 million a day, how much more, with a debt of 1,7 trillion,

Still none of you have said what will change if we stay in the EU apart from it will be less shit than leaving,

bit like do you want to chop of your right or left foot