OK, lets put it this way, what do we want done?

[Clairetree1]

Its all going so badly and everyone is worried, but what can be done?

Do we want another referendum and the whole Brexit thing aborted? Do we want another leader doing something different? Do we think Teresa May is doing everything that can be done?

I say "do we think" but to be honest, I don't think anything either way of Teresa May, I don't know what to think.

I don't know what could make things better at this stage

It won't- it's got nothing whatsoever to do with the fucking EU!

Leaving the EU will just make everything that was ok much worse.

I despair at your ridiculous logic.

It's like saying 'I'm not happy with my house so I'm going to burn down the whole village'

Your house hasn't improved and everything else around it is ruined too.

Bearbehind well we will find out, shit in the EU, shit out of the EU,
you still haven't answered my question who is it going to get sorted, ( my list ) and don't say by not leaving the EU, the status quo in this country needs changing how will it happen ?

Bearbehind At least we will all have to rebuild together

@Rosstac

Who is going to...?

Certainly not an extreme right Government with no will to spend money on public services even if they hadn't blown all our money on this ridiculous Brexit fraud.

I haven't answered the question because it's not what we are discussing.

The fact you've got things so screwed up in your head that you think it's part of the same discussion is the whole problem.

Nothing you listed has anything to do with the EU.

Being in or out won't change anything on that list directly.

But leaving with fuck the economy up so badly that there's even less chance of things improving.

How can you not see that?

At least we will all have to rebuild together

Surely rosstac isn't for real?

@Rosstac

What Bear is saying so colourfully (and I agree with it) is the following:

• your issues are to do with your selection of national government

• leaving the EU will make resolving any issues you want resolved much harder if not impossible as it will reduce the wealth available to fix what needs fixing

Bear is right it has nothing to do with the EU. But if we leave we can't pay for the changes you want.

Just for the record, I voted Remain.

If we have a hard Brexit, I reckon there will be perhaps 5 years of economic chaos, but in the long term I think we would rebalance and be perfectly ok. We are a significant economy in the world, and I really don't understand the abject pessimism many express.

A soft Brexit is the worst of all worlds: leaving the EU technically but having to follow many of the rules a lot of people find unpalatable and having no say in the way the EU is run.

If we were to stay, it would damage our democracy for at least a generation. Yes, the referendum may have been advisory, but that was not how it has been presented. That horse has bolted. If we were to stay, it would be a devastating blow to political process.

The ideal would be a decent trade deal - but it's clear to me that the EU has been playing hard-ball all along and have shown no sign of trying to reach a fair deal for everyone. It has been a nasty rather than an amicable divorce. Their attitude has simply confirmed the beliefs of the Leavers.

Bearbehind not idea how its going to get better then , ok
i'll believe it when I see and feel it, until then its just all guessing, you don't know any more than I do what will happen, Oh yes experts, that have been wrong before and will be again.

@MysteriesOfTheOrganism

Why the focus solely on goods trade?

Do you believe the EU doesn't touch us in other ways? Aviation? Nuclear Fuel? Services? ...

Rosstac Germany and France are in the EU. They have much better standards of healthcare and education. Therefore, it’s not the EU’s fault that the NHS is crumbling or our education system isn’t fit for purpose.
Both France and Germany invest a higher percentage of GDP in health and education than we do because their governments have the right to make those decisions.
Our government has ruthlessly pursued austerity which is largely or wholly responsible for all the things y

@Rosstac

No experts needed to assess the economic calamity the would be Brexit. Just curiosity and a bit of common sense.

....you list. NONE OF THE THINGS YOU MENTION HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE EU.
I don’t know how you just refuse to see this

It has been a nasty rather than an amicable divorce. Their attitude has simply confirmed the beliefs of the Leavers.

That's simply not true.

The EU has just applied its protocols, as defined by all members, including us.

They have been very clear about what is and isn't possible.

People are only saying they are being unfair because they've not treated us like the special snowflakes we think we are.

We are a significant economy in the world

To a great extent because of our soon-to-be-thrown-away position as a member of the world's largest trading bloc.

Who have the US and Japan been queueing up to do tasty trade deals with recently? Oh, whaddya know, it's the EU.

How many fucks do you think the US and Japan (among others) will give when we're a tiny country out on our own, wanting trade deals that carry excellent terms for us?

Do you not think countries that do want trade deals with us will want things in exchange? Do you remember, for example, India and their request for more visas in return for good trade terms? Theresa May's gone a bit quiet about that, hasn't she?

Rosstac we could make a start on it getting better by having a government that invests properly in public services and protects workers' rights. We've always had that in our power, it's not to do with whether we are in the EU or not.
If we leave there will be even less money to invest in public services because our economy will be damaged.

I guess we'll know in 20-30 yrs if trading as part of a united bloc or trying to rely on series of bilateral deals is better. I'm pretty sure that being part of a big bloc is vastly superior & cost effective, but we shall see.

Trump signed a big trade deal with China in November 2017... then promptly slapped loads of tariffs on the relationship 4 months later. Hard to see that situation going well.

The ideal would be a decent trade deal

The EU have offered a CETA type trade deal, but this has been rejected by our government.

We are not a significant economy once we leave the EU. That isn't 'talking the country down' or being pessimistic. It's bloody obvious. We are a tiny island, reliant on other countries to feed us, to buy our services and to sell us their goods that we can't make ourselves. We are removing ourselves, voluntarily, from the very system that has made this easy for the past four decades. It is an act of national self-harm that will reverberate for years throughout our economy.

There is no bloody Empire anymore. We are not 'major players'. What we are is hubristic, delusional, embarrassing.

And as for 'we can rebuild together' - well quite frankly, fuck off with that shite. You broke it, you rebuild it.

The ideal would be a decent trade deal - but it's clear to me that the EU has been playing hard-ball all along and have shown no sign of trying to reach a fair deal for everyone. It has been a nasty rather than an amicable divorce. Their attitude has simply confirmed the beliefs of the Leavers.

They are protecting the interests of their members. We want our cake and eat it to the detriment of the other EU nations, why would they agree to that?

Imagine you go to a health club and pay a year in advance. The health club uses the advance fees to pay for improvements, like new equipment. You say you don't want to pay any more but you want to use the facilities, in fact you want special treatment the others don't get like private sessions on a Sunday. Oh and you want the money back they've already agreed to redo the roof, even though you heled write the membership rules about advanced payments when you signed up.

That's basically the UK's position, why would the health club EU agree to that? Would you?

Couldn't agree more, unnecessary

golondrina So how do we get a government that invest in public services and where will the money come from when the government is spending more than it receives in, 250 million a day over spend

That 3 blokes in pub video... says the avg annual income (per capita) of Commonwealth is $3600. Goes down a lot more if you remove the 3 wealthy nations: Oz, NZ, Canada. Yes India is big & has 200 million in its middle class, but their middle class qualifies as 'poor' compared to EU residents. The idea we will make more money out of trying to get poor & very poor people to buy our more expensive goods & services: pffft.