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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to warn of possible grounding of passenger flights and air freight from 29th March

350 replies

Clairetree1 · 01/08/2018 12:18

In order for any plane to take off or land in the UK from the 29th March, we need either

a) an agreement that we can still be included in the European aviation safety agreement, including agreeing to be bound by the European courts.

or

b) The UK civil aviation authority needs to set up its own safety agreement, write all its policies, establish it rules, negotiate with approximately 25 separate governments to come to an agreement that these rules are acceptable for planes flying into and out of their countries ( including the EU and USA), recruit and train several thousand staff, buy and adapt premises, put maintenance and safety procedures into action, to the satisfaction of said 25 governments, under go and pass international inspection and get underway.

My friend in civil aviation has been shouting louder and louder about this for over a year, as time ticks by and nothing whatsoever is done to make progress towards either a or b.

He tells me there was an article about this on the BBC website earlier, but it appears to have been taken down now, at least I can't find it.

Anybody prepared to buy air tickets for April 2019?

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 02/08/2018 12:58

On the subject of the generational divide - my father was in the Navy during the war and was involved in the D day landings after Med convoys (and being sunk 3 times). My mother was a nurse from Ireland and was bombed in Liverpool and Gloucester. My Mum always voted Conservative and my Dad switched from Labour to Conservative in the 70s. They both thought Mrs Thatcher was wonderful. They were critical of some aspects of the EU through the 90s before they died, but were very clear that it was a Good Thing overall and would I have no doubt voted Remain. They would have detested Farage et al and seen them as spivs. I and my siblings (50s and 60s) voted Remain as did all our children (20s and 30s)

NameChangedAgain18 · 02/08/2018 13:06

My mum also loves it, Susan. Goes to the cafe as well, jacket potato an’ all! She didn’t vote for Brexit, though - she wasn’t allowed a vote, despite living here since 1965. Now she is being told that her Indefinite Leave to Remain will no longer exist and she’ll have to reapply to stay, but that’s another story.

LoveInTokyo · 02/08/2018 13:09

I absolutely fundamentally disagree with all this pigeonholing of people into certain generations as if everybody thinks en masse.

Not everybody, but there are definite trends. The demographics of the vote don't lie.

My baby boomer parents (60 and 63) voted remain too and are horrified by all this.

MissSusanSays · 02/08/2018 13:11

That sucks namedchanged. I really don’t understand how people can think that is ok. Again, Mum has been told about stuff like this, actually knows people in similar circumstances (and was in those circumstances as a trailing spouse when we lived abroad) but refuses to admit it is wrong. Apparently they should all have thought of this and applied for citizenship when they moved her ffs.

Peregrina · 02/08/2018 13:17

Motherof I think you escape being a boomer by a whisker - if it was 1945 - 64. I definitely am of the baby boom generation but I did not vote Leave and do not vote Tory!

Peregrina · 02/08/2018 13:19

Farage = spiv. Yes, since he wants to turn the clock back, let's use a good war time word to describe him.

borntobequiet · 02/08/2018 13:31

Spiv - I chose it deliberately!
Whenever my mother used it, it was after hunting around for some other suitable epithet for a truly despicable person and finally settling on the worst one she could think of.

Motheroffourdragons · 02/08/2018 14:24

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VickieCherry · 02/08/2018 14:30

My mum's 70 and calls Farage a spiv :D She also voted to Remain (despite voting to stay out in the 70s), and is a life-long Labour voter, as are the rest of her family. She gets very cross about the generalisation of her generation being Leave-voting Tory idiots, but the fact is that the majority are.

I do wonder what will happen to the Tory vote in 20 years, when that generation are sadly mostly gone. Do more recent generations still believe they're a safe pair of hands?

LoveInTokyo · 02/08/2018 14:40

Do more recent generations still believe they're a safe pair of hands?

Absolutely not.

My parents refuse to vote Labour because they see them as the party of 1970s chaos. They have voted (at various times) for the Tories, the Lib Dems, the Greens and the National Health Action Party, but never ever Labour.

I think huge numbers of my generation will feel the same way about the Tories. We will never be able to forgive them for Brexit.

But right now I can't bring myself vote Labour either. Not with Corbyn in charge. At this stage I would vote for Labour under Ed Miliband or even Gordon Brown without a second's hesitation though.

KennDodd · 02/08/2018 15:55

Why do you think the LibDems are doing so badly? I know Leave voters paint this as a consequence of them being anti Brexit. They are my top choice at the moment because of their anti Brexit stance, I almost don't care what any of their other policies are. I wouldn't vote Tory or Labour at the moment because I don't want my vote to be take as support for Brexit. It's often repeated that 80% of voters voted for Brexit supporting parties (true) I don't think this means that 80% of the population support Brexit though and I don't want my vote to count in that number.

So anyway, why haven't LibDems mopped up?

SoloD · 02/08/2018 16:01

The Irish pm said we couldn't use their airspace.

But that is now what he said though, he was repeating a statement by the British Chancellor Phillip Hammond concerning not being able to have planes fly outside of the UK, as we don't have the necessary agreements in place.

It helps to check the facts.

LoveInTokyo · 02/08/2018 16:08

KennDodd

I think it's because of the first past the post system.

I know a lot of people who would have voted Lib Dem but felt they had to vote Labour to stop the Tories getting in.

Peregrina · 02/08/2018 16:34

I agree it's the FPTP system- vote Lib Dem/Green and risk either Tory/Labour [whichever you dislike most or is most likely to win] getting in. Even when UKIP were riding high, the only MPs they had were initially Tories crossing the floor but then Carswell managed to get back in 2015. It is possible that Farage actually did win when he stood in 2015, but there was some Tory ballot rigging skullduggery. Two people were being prosecuted for electoral fraud but it all seems to have gone quiet.

Motheroffourdragons · 02/08/2018 16:39

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Peregrina · 02/08/2018 16:46

Yes Motherof - that did a huge amount of damage. Although at the moment I am a paid up member of the LibDems because being active was the best chance of getting the Tory out. Any whiff of a coalition with the Tories and they will have my resignation. The only thing I would countenance would be a genuine all party wartime like coalition.

PestymcPestFace · 02/08/2018 16:50

a genuine all party wartime like coalition seems a rather good idea at the moment Peregrina

Motheroffourdragons · 02/08/2018 16:53

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LoveInTokyo · 02/08/2018 17:07

I stopped voting for the Lib Dems because of tuition fees, but I think we've got bigger things to worry about.

I'd vote for them again now if they put up a better fight against Brexit. But they just seem to be nowhere in this debate.

KennDodd · 02/08/2018 17:08

I'd agree about an all party coalition for these times too.

I don't. I want the Tories to own Brexit so they can't blame anybody else (even though I know they will anyway).

LoveInTokyo · 02/08/2018 17:10

I don't. I want the Tories to own Brexit so they can't blame anybody else (even though I know they will anyway).

This.

It's not like Labour would be any use under Corbyn anyway.

LoveInTokyo · 02/08/2018 17:30

Although actually, Labour are almost as much to blame because they're sitting comfortably in opposition, not actually doing anything to oppose Brexit because "the will of the people", and when it all goes wrong they will smugly blame those nasty Tories.

Maybe an all-party coalition would actually be better, because then Labour would actually have to bloody well start doing something useful.

StealthPolarBear · 02/08/2018 19:11

I can't name the leader of the lib dems. When I Google it I have no idea if I'll kick myself or not. Wow.

StealthPolarBear · 02/08/2018 19:12

Oh yes I did know that.

Havanananana · 02/08/2018 21:44

In an attempt to bring this thread back to something vaguely resembling a discussion of the original post, I'll summarise the situation that will exist in the event of a 'No Deal' Brexit taking effect on 29th March. Note - I'm making no judgement about the desirability or likelihood of this occurring.

  1. In the absence of a replacement for the Open Skies Agreement, no aircraft can land or take off to or from the UK. Not just to/from the EU, but also to other countries in the Agreement, including the USA. The planes would be uninsured, would not have approved flight plans and therefore cannot take off, fly into anyone's airspace, or land.

  2. Holders of British commercial pilots licenses will find these are no longer accepted internationally - British aircrew will no longer be able to fly in to or out of the UK.

  3. Aircraft are repaired and maintained by highly qualified and certified technical staff in certified hangers. Post-Brexit, UK certifications will no longer be internationally recognised, meaning that a plane serviced by a UK technician cannot legally fly. Planes will not fall out of the sky - they will simply not be allowed to take off.

  4. Airlines need to book take-off and landing slots many months in advance. Airlines are currently faced with a dilemma - do they book slots now and incur massive costs if the flights cannot fly or do they wait and risk that when there is eventually clarity, all the slots have been taken?

This affects all commercial flights, passenger as well as freight flights. The UK tourist industry would be badly affected (foreign tourists generate revenues of over $20 billion a year in the UK). The supply of fresh food and medicines to the UK would be severely disrupted.

Posters have mentioned TUI's T&Cs in regard to Brexit. I'll add this quote from Inghams;

At present, the Changes in Law [following Brexit] that we consider are most likely to occur and, in turn, affect your chosen arrangements are as follows:

a) A potential inability for the United Kingdom as a whole (and ourselves, for the purpose of this clause and your chosen arrangements) to rely on the free movement of workers and, in particular, the Posted Workers Directive. The result of this may be that we are unable to provide you with certain services that make up your chosen arrangements, such as the provision of a local representative, chalet staff, etc.

b) A potential inability for British airlines to operate flights into / out of the European Union and, conversely, an inability for European airlines to operate into / out of the United Kingdom. The result of this may be that we are unable to provide you either with the flights that you have booked or indeed any replacement flights

To those who believe that they can just drive to the Continent instead, there will be other hurdles to overcome.

Ferry capacity will be greatly reduced as boarding and unloading times are increased. It may be necessary to limit or prioritise traffic to certain goods only, such as food supplies, with limited or no provision for private vehicles.

In the event of 'No Deal', UK drivers licenses will no longer be valid on their own - drivers will need to acquire an International Drivers Permit. UK drivers are currently automatically covered by third party insurance when driving in the EU. This ceases on 29th March, meaning drivers will need additional insurance.

UK Coach and freight drivers risk being unable to drive in the EU post-Brexit unless they have a EU licence or permit. There is currently no system in place for UK drivers to acquire this (as it is not currently a requirement).