Any remainers here who don't think civilisation is about to collapse?

[Bloodylovepotatoes]

Die hard remainer here. Was gutted with referendum result, but I think it'll probably be a bit crap after for a while, then it'll level out and basically be fine. Don't think society will collapse.

Apparently this is a very unpopular opinion and either I should be a defiant leaver saying all will be wonderful and we'll have our sovereignty back and our blue passports and all those nasty foreigners will be gone, or I should be boarding up all my doors and windows and preparing myself for economic collapse and societal disintegration?

Is there no one like me?! No middle ground????

Ta1kinpeace Yes looks like Spain’s got the better deal, all those rich pensioners spending their money in Spain, what’s wrong with a job based visa system ?

Some people on here are verging on the insane. Or are just stirring it. The sort of people I wouldn't rely on in a crisis.

I'd be the first to crack.

Ta1kinpeace Or he could give more with the money he will save from our EU contributions

Go for as soft a Brexit as possible

Thanks for answering. Unfortunately TM either wants herself, or is so afraid of the ERG that she will allow, the hardest of hard brexits. There is a lot of money to made in the destruction of an economy. That is what the ERG is fighting for. TM is narrow minded, unimaginative and her tenure at the home office proves she hates immigrants. She is also in way over her head. Whether she wants hard brexit or not (and I think she might - all those red lines, and not guaranteeing EU citizens rights were her ideas) she may not be willing or able to avert the course

that brexit is on without having a huge mandate to do so from the people.

Which means if we want a soft brexit - we have to fight for it. But if we're going to fight the govt to try and force them into changing their policy - then why not fight for what we actually want, and is actually better i.e remain?

The thing is - it is going to take a lot to make the govt change their policy. A lot of petitions, a lot of letters, a lot of marches. They have to be forced to see that there is no majority appetite for a hard brexit. Assuming that everything will be OK, and hoping that someone else comes up with an idea is not going to achieve that.

But if we all make a determined effort to fight the remain cause ... we might not get it, but we might prove that enough people don't want brexit to force a soft brexit. Don't they say with negotiations - go in asking for more than you want?

Ta1kinpeace That can not happen unless the EU relax FOM, it’s in there hands if they really want the U.K. to stay in the Custom union as it is at present

The CU us nothing to do with FOM, that is the SM (single market) we dont want to join the CU because that stops us doing our own trade deals, the whole point of brexit.
Its also why we cant have a EFTA option because though they can do separate FTA (not in CU) they have to accept FOM.

Your statement shows why there should never have been a vote, even now folk do not understand what and how the EU works nor our part in it.

I don't think TM wants a hard brexit.

That from a friend of mine who works at the home office.

rosstac
Or he could give more with the money he will save from our EU contributions
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending_in_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File:UK-Government-Expenditure-2016-17.jpg
Look at the chart
EU money is not even a drop in the ocean of UK government spending

jasjas
CU and SM are not the same thing technically, but the overlap is such ....
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36906796

TM is doing a good impression of someone who is happy to accept an Hard Brexit. Unlike some, I don't believe that the past two years have actually been an elaborate conspiracy to fool business, the Tory hard right, and the electorate into believing we're leaving when we're not.

Sometimes the government is just rubbish, hasn't done their homework, and expects ordinary people to live with the fallout of their terrible decision making. That's why they're so keen on the "will of the people" narrative, so when the shit hits the fan they can just keep whining, "But this is what you WANTED. We had a VOTE."

I don't think TM wants a hard brexit

Well - she certainly hasn't done anything that ensures a soft brexit occurs. She created her own red lines that painted her into a corner (no - leaving did not originally mean leaving the SM and CU - even Farage talked about Norway. But following her input, any mention of either is now a betrayal of brexit) and she gives into the ERG at every turn whilst fighting the tory rebels. She has allowed the newspapers to call her own mps traitors and done nothing about it. She came up with the 'citizens of nowhere' rhetoric, mentioned discontinuing security co-operation as a threat in the article 50 notification, and refused to unilaterally agree EU citizens rights, which would have helped out Brits living in the EU.
Add in that 'the hostile environment' came in under her time at the H.O and the windrush scandal was a result of her actions - though Amber Rudd took the fall... I'm not convinced. Maybe she's just massively incompetent (and I do think she is) but maybe she wants this a little bit as well...

She could sign on the dotted line for a soft brexit tomorrow. That would be beneficial for the economy because it would decrease uncertainty - and all the business would know they didn't have to make preparations to leave. She doesn't do that... why?

there is no point in trying to use 'no deal' as a bargaining chip unless its credible. At the moment brexit has the potential to inflict far more damage than the ~3% of GDP that the vote alone did. The woeful performance of our government means that a deliberate 'no deal' is just not credible.

and its not just food that is likely to get delayed leading to empty shelves - eg pampers and tampax are sourced from hungary.

Ta1kinpeace

i know, i was answering rostacs post on FO

The point is we could negotiate and stay in the CU, securing jobs in this country/take adv of 50 plus EU trade deals and the latest with Japan and still not have to accept FOM.
OR we could go for EFTA, be able to do our own FTA and take adv of the existing efta ones but have to accept FOM.

We ve decided to do neither and have a "3rd way" which is just fucking stupid and all because of the in fighting in the Tory party and Mays weakness, paradoxically if or when it goes belly up, the public will never forgive the Tories, its a big gamble for them.

*FO should be FOM

Interesting thread (apart from the disgraceful attack on Icantreach - how fucking rude?!).

My brain won’t allow me to believe too much bad stuff will happen, but what do I know? Most experts who express an opinion say no deal would be catastrophic. I don’t think ‘no deal’ will happen because I don’t think the Govt is quite that stupid. But as I said, what do I know?

I’d like to remain but can’t see it being an option because of the ref, so my guess is it’ll be some soft fudgey bino followed by a gradual separation or a gradual rejoining.

Or Armageddon,

Having thought about this overnight, I think that one of my serious worries is Jacob Rees-Mogg. Labour will not be voted into power until they get their shit together and JRM will go for a Hard Brexit, introduce other hardline policies that set the country back and allow his friends to profit from Brexit. I am presuming the hardline policies but because he's anti-abortion, anti gay marriage, wealthy in his own right and has a family who seem more in line with an Enid Blyton than 2018. I fear that he could be hardline enough to reverse positive laws that have arisen thanks to the EU like generous maternity rights, workers rights etc

the optimist in me thinks the EU are not stupid they will come to the table with a good deal, at the eleventh hour and it will be okay

This is what everyone thinks - that if the UK just holds out for a good deal the EU will do the right thing. I'm pretty certain that they won't, because all along they have held the same line, which is that we're welcome to leave, if we want to. If we do, then there are a set of models for us to choose from going forward - Norway, Switzerland, Canada, S. Korea, etc. All we need to do is pick one and then the finer details can be discussed, inc. a trade deal. But if we keep insisting on a bespoke deal, then they are just going to say 'No', because it doesn't work like that. The UK isn't all that special, or powerful. It's a small country that needs to realise that it is the minor partner in this deal. The EU really can set terms and stick to them. So if we want a deal with them, that's fine, but it has to be on their terms. As long as the UK keeps barging about, coming up with alternatives, cherry-picking what it would like, there will be no progress. And guess what, so far, after two years of wrangling, there has been no progress. Surprise, surprise! The UK needs to wake up and realise that it's not in the great position that all the 'leave' voters think it is. It should pick a deal or just accept that it isn't leaving the EU after all, because to do so without a deal, would be utterly, fucking stupid and economically suicidal. The EU is not going to offer an 11th hour olive branch - it's up to us.

I think a lot of people will have their own personal disasters because of Brexit - job losses, benefits lost, having to leave the UK, being unable to leave the UK, families split up etc. But overall (especially the people with money) the majority will possibly be ok.

I'm trying to mitigate against my own personal disaster as I'm not well-off, my job is not stable and I'm completely on my own.

I'm still hoping it just gets cancelled or we have a second referendum. I am an optimist.

I'm a remainer and I wish I could agree with you that it is scaremongering. If we get a Norway deal I would be mightily relieved but if we get no deal I fear that the scaremongering is being downplayed.
I hear the hard brexiteers soothsaying things like "remember the millennium bug when all the planes were going to fall out of the sky, and they didn't!"....and i recoil in embarrassment knowing that my company (a major bank) spent 8 years preparing and changing systems and employing thousands of contractors, programmers and engineers that had fully tested the systems atleast 10 times prior to the switch.
The sole beneficiaries of a no deal will be the tax havens or British overseas territories that will be maintained after the EU clamps down on tax havens in April 2019. To facilitate this the hard right press will pursue no deal for its owners, why else do you think the Telegraph is paying Boris 300k pa on top if his MPs salary but the rest IMO face the food and medicine shortages that the government will only start fully disclosing at the end of august.
..
And from this chaos you have the law of unintended consequences that has no cut off date.. until we eventually capitulate again and sign over 10billions more.
So we should think of our families first rather than waving our union Jack knickers at parliament claiming to be more patriotic and do what we can either to get a Norway deal or democratically reverse the decision to remain...and to those who say that we can't go back on the 2016 result....you can have either irrevocable or democratic referenda but you can't have both.
Lastly Nigel Farage and many other leavers (e.g. JRM and Nigel Lawson) are also looking after their families as in the last 2 years NF has admitted that he will take his fully paid up gold plated pension from the EU (paid by us Uk taxpayers) and also applied for German citizenship....leaving all the rest of us to live with the ensuing chaos....why do you think he did this?

rossini your personal attack on pretzels at Mon 30-Jul-18 20:42:30 was completely unnecessary. One of the worst I've read on MN.

Remained here. Gutted by the result and feel annoyed that it has seemed to normalize far right views (I don't believe all brexit voters are far right, but do think those with far right views will have voted brexit out of some warped view that their world is being taken over by muslism).

I don't think society is going to collapse, but I do think it's only a matter of time before worker rights will be pulled back and I think it'll be interesting to see which of the big players in the brexit campaign manage to gain a lot financially from us leaving.

I think I'm probably fortunate that as someone with a reasonable income, own home, job security etc that it'll probably be business as usual short term but will feel the hike in prices so need to tighten our belts a bit (I'm trying to save more, which again is a luxury to have).

If I was close to the breadline, on minimum wage, relying on benefits to top up my income (because we seemingly don't force companies to pay decent wages or pay tax), have to budget meticulously etc then the reality of price hikes and shortages would scare me more.

People voted to Leave (narrowly)
Not how to Leave.
Theresa May invented her own red lines, which are blocking a good deal.

The idea that the EU would dismantle its SIngle market - on which its prosperity depends - for one country leaving is ludicrous.
The government has nearly run out of time with its internal squabbling, resignations and incompetence.

Any Withdrawal Agreement has to be signed off not just by 28 heads of government - any of whom who could in practice veto it - but by the EU parliament.
Any trade elements mean the WA would also have to be ratified by about 40 national and regional Parliaments -remember little Walloon vetoing the 1st CETA draft in 2016 ?

Currently, the Tory party is continuing its internal fight and May is struggling to stay as PM, all of which has prevented meaningful negotiations ever since May invoked A50 without any plan

So no deal is a real possibility, unless May - or her successor - thinks of the whole country, not just Tory party unity and goes for the least painful Brexit to the public

It's not the Remainer predictions of what no deal would mean that scare me:

it's what some longterm Leavers - who have spent years studying and planning for Brexit - are warning about the consequences of the dreadful hash this government are making of it.

Dr Richard North has been campaigning to Leave the EU for 30 years, including years in UKIP working with Farage.
He has amassed tremendous knowledge of international trade, transport sand agencies and blogs daily:
www.eureferendum.com/Default.aspx

He still wants Brexit - at any cost, - but his desperate warnmings of what a no deal or even WTO Brexit would mean are terrifying:

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86405

"May's decision to leave its Single Market.
the disruption to our trade would not just be a car crash or a train wreck, it would be a whole fleet of jumbo jets crashing down on our entire economy."

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86370
"One can genuinely see a state of emergency being declared, with the Army called out to escort truck-loads of food to besieged supermarkets"

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86375

"chaos at our ports"
"bare shelves in our supermarkets"

And yet he still wants it .... surreal

I imagine he still wants it because a game of Risk is fun if you are personally nice and cosy.