Is there any way Brexit can be stopped?

[Electrascoffee]

I think there will be more civil unrest if it goes ahead than if it doesn't.

At this point, what can we do to stop it happening? People are going to die. And all because of the hubris of David Cameron and racism.

As well as all our existing opt-outs, I don't know why the concessions David Cameron negotiated before the referendum were so badly reported in the media. Well, I do know why, it's because the Fail etc would accept nothing short of a blanket ban on any immigration. But actually, he was granted most of what he asked for, including:

• formal exemption for the UK from any further political union, written into the treaties;
• guarantees that the UK would not have to contribute to any bail-outs of the Euro
• the right to delay in-work benefits to any EU migrant workers so that they must have been working in the UK for a number of months before they would be entitled to such benefits.

-A commitment to the reduction of bureaucracy and "red tape".

Summary of each point here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105

From the EU's point of view, it must seem like we already had a lot of opt-outs, had been granted more and then voted to leave anyway. I see why they are a bit fed up of negotiating with us.

I hope it can be stopped. If there were to be a petition set up with enough signatures calling for a second referendum in the event of a no deal? I’m sure that many people who voted leave would even sign it.

I regret my vote too Come

Brexit can’t be stopped, civil unrest at best, civil war at worst.

Violence is going to happen no matter what happens.

I don't think that there would be significant violence if Brexit was stopped, on the basis that the government had tried everything to achieve a liveable with deal, but had failed. It would need to be paired with a commitment to address issues within the EU, eg restricting immigration as allowed already. But a chaotic crash-out will lead to violence. And a permanently much poorer country in which the very rich eat everyone else, essentially? We are already seeing a big increase in violent crime. A very unhappy, insecure populace with everything getting worse and worse will lead to God knows what in terms of violence.

There's a already a petition going round, sar.

I guess we will wait and see. I suspect that the UK will crash out hard, there will be shortages and civil unrest.

Russia will just for the fun of it start arming some of the groups just to make things interesting.

So

• opt out of treaty obligations
• opt out of payments (partially)
• opt out of free movement (partially) these are good things
• opt out of EU This is a bad thing

Can you link to it Frang?

Amazing histrionics as usual. Wait a year and see if we all die

What if some people do die, due to not being able to get their insulin, or violence kicking off in Northern Ireland?

What will you say then? "Oh dear, very sad"?

I wish people would stop being so flippant.

Shift in public opinion?

news.sky.com/story/public-opinion-is-shifting-sharply-against-brexit-sky-data-poll-reveals-11453220

To be fair to TM, although I think she made appalling mistakes when she first became PM, it won't be possible to negotiate the sort of deal people want. Most people who voted remain want a deal which involves not leaving or staying as close as possible to the existing arrangement, and those who voted leave were never going to get the "cake and eat it" deal they were promised before the referendum because it doesn't exist. Of course, this will be blamed on TM and the EU, rather than accepting that what they wanted is impossible.

@sar501

Link to petition started by the Independent www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-give-people-a-final-say-on-brexit-deal

Let's not shed too many tears for Theresa May - there was no need for her to adopt such a belligerent tone initially. She might well have got much further by being more conciliatory, both to the Remain voters in the UK and to the rest of the EU.

I won't be lying awake at night worrying about her Peregrina . I completely agree with you that it is of her own making. If she had just gone for EEA/CU straight away it would have fulfilled the referendum result and been tolerable to most remain voters. I assume she was taking the advice of the vile Nick Timothy, but I read in the paper yesterday that even he is advocating temporary membership of the EEA.

Yes, it most definitely can be stopped - and I hope that it will be.

I would encourage everyone who wishes to stop the Brexit madness to sign the People's Vote Petition, if they haven't already done so, and join one of the protest marches, as part of the Summer of Action.

The British public was totally cheated on Brexit. It's likely that a real motivator for the Brexiteer leaders is that the EU has anti tax haven legislation coming in in 2019, and that would have exposed them and their richest 1% friends to public scrutiny of the vast sums they export without paying tax on it. See
medium.com/the-jist/was-eu-tax-evasion-regulation-the-reason-for-the-brexit-referendum-980ba88a8077

My own thoughts follow

Everyone is used to voting for MPs. We do it regularly. If the person we voted for disappoints us then we vote for someone else next time. First past the post is pretty acceptable. Whoever we elect will be an MP, and they’ll do the same job, albeit in their own way. All the voting choices are very similar in nature.

Referendums are fundamentally different. For a start we use them only rarely. The choices are between fundamentally different things such as maintaining the status quo or going for very significant change. There is no way of reversing a decision save calling another referendum. Also, typically the risks all lie with one choice. Because of this, nations that regularly use referendums such as the Swiss use them late in a thorough process that flushes out all the information voters need and debates all the options before the referendum takes place.

On top of this, it is generally most unusual to use a 50% threshold in a referendum, the usual reason given for a higher threshold is that a proper mandate for change needs to be demonstrated. 70% is a common mark. Other nations are aware that a result close to the 50% mark is not a clear mandate with the big risk that it can permanently divide the electorate.

It’s this last situation we’re in. We had just about no proper evidence at all provided by either the Remain or the Leave groups. We are having an inconclusive result force fed to us by biased parts of the media and a clique of out of touch politicians, all of whose careers will benefit. Even business and the BBC are not debating or challenging the interpretation of the Brexit result, as they could and should. The result is in no way a mandate for change worthy of a nation of our standing. Where has single nation politics gone? Why is Britain at a stroke deserting the nations we are in so many ways closest to?

Brexit will be an utter disaster. People who think it's the best option really do need to read information sources beyond the right wing dailies whose proprietors are in the tax haven brigade. Their loyalties are not with the people of the UK. All nations friendly to think we're nuts. Only Mr Putin smiles as he sees the west weaken.

oldishguy

I agree with much of what you say, but not "first past the post is pretty acceptable".

The Tories have one MP for every 41,000 ish people who voted for them. The Lib Dems have one MP for every 197,000 ish people who voted for them.

It's hugemy disproportionate, and it's what's currently allowing the Tories to force through the wishes of a very small number of people (the extreme hard Brexiters in their own party) without much in the way of checks and balances.

If we had a more proportionate voting system then firstly the spread of votes for each party would be quite different as people would vote for the party they most agree with instead of being forced to vote tactically, and secondly there would be far more "centrist" MPs, meaning that we would be far less likely to be pursuing such an extreme course of action.

Yes it can be stopped. Write to your MP, sign petitions, the momentum is building now that we can see the true costs and benefits (or lack thereof) to Brexit.

The government is in crisis over this, Labour is at least as divided, there is no clear way forward, it's a Mexican standoff between die-hard "leave at any cost" Brexiteers, moderates leavers and remainers.

For the sake of this country, for our children's future, the public must be allowed to break this deadlock where the politicians have so utterly failed.
.

Where can I find details of the marches? I know there is a big one planned for October, but is there a list somewhere? Thanks!

Me too, I never go on marches but I would in this case.

It's just so sad. Since the result the UK has spent all of its energy focussing on Brexit. What about Universal Credit, the NHS, jobs etc? There are real people already suffering.

The government had a moral duty to inform/educate the electorate about the proposals. If it was a joke that the public found out for themselves by reading the side of a bus it would be pretty funny. It is not one bit funny.

A (good) few years ago Ireland asked the population to vote on the Nice Treaty and the majority voted against it. It was brought back to the electorate when the outcome was to reject the Treaty.

People scoffed at this but the reality was nobody read the Treaty. Obviously some people read it, probably law makers!! I lived there and I didn't read it. I didn't know anyone who read it. The Taoiseach said he hadn't read it all! Hopefully he was joking but nobody thought he was joking. Most of it was probably incomprehensible to ordinary folk.

The Treaty was printed and sent to every household in the country and the discussions were televised and were never off the box. The government set out to inform the electorate about what they were being asked to vote for. Ireland did extremely well out of the Treaty and never looked back.

The very least the UK government should have done is to respect the electorate sufficiently to tell them what was being asked of them and to establish a margin.

David Cameron obviously didn't do this and the rest is history.

I urge everyone to sign the online petition to have a say in the matter. At least that way people will actually have their say.

I know you have a good point with merit but the other systems do mean that you're really voting for a party and not a person, and the public are used to the present arrangements. The inequality of vote effectiveness is totally gross under our system but there's not much chance of changing that before Brexit. My meaning was ... pretty acceptable [to most people]. The No. 1 priority is to prepare the ground for throwing out Brexit.

Please note that my previous posting was a reply to LovelnTokyo's post. I'm sorry it didn't get posted under that - I'm just learning how to use this forum properly.

Next big march, 20th October, London www.facebook.com/events/240175440046612/
We could organise a Mumsnet Meetup!!!

There are other events up and down the country
www.peoples-vote.uk/events

List of other events
www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/anti-brexit-events-in-my-local-area-including-protests-marches-and-socials-1-5464362

I know you have a good point with merit but the other systems do mean that you're really voting for a party and not a person, and the public are used to the present arrangements.

That doesn't mean that they like those arrangements or think they are any good. The only alternative is not voting.

The inequality of vote effectiveness is totally gross under our system but there's not much chance of changing that before Brexit. My meaning was ... pretty acceptable [to most people]. The No. 1 priority is to prepare the ground for throwing out Brexit.

No, there's no chance at all of changing that before Brexit. But there's the rub.

The first past the post system is precisely what is allowing Brexiters to claim that 80-90% of people are behind Brexit because they voted for a pro Brexit party in the 2017 general election.

Of course, it is obvious bollocks to say that in a race between two brown horses nearly everyone voted for a brown horse, therefore that it what everyone wants. But they are still saying it.

I know people who wanted to vote Lib Dem but voted Labour to keep the Tories out. I also know people who are strong remainers but reluctantly voted Tory to keep Labour out because they think Corbyn would be a disaster. It is arrant nonsense to suggest that any of those people support Brexit in any way.