Still Not the Brexit Arms

[Bearbehind]

Gosh the old thread has been busy today!

Not got time to catch up just yet but putting this one here for later.

In relation to 'will of the people'. We are the people, you are the people. If you don't like what the government is doing, do something about it.

We are not passive recipients of democracy, we should be active members. Blaming 'the government' as if it appears by magic is nonsense.

Everyone has the same say - one vote - everyone can join a party, start a party, or stand as an MP.

DGRossetti How is that the will of the people, we have had labour, Tory/lib, Tory governments in the last 20 years and no government has changed that

And yet people blamed the EU ....

Moussemoose That’s what I’m trying to say recent and present governments have done nothing about it, so who to vote for?

What you see with your own eyes may be true in relation to your area, but it is not a reason for you to disregard statistics which are reflect the bigger picture.

I know someone who voted leave because she said there were too many Somalis in Bristol. No amount of explaining to her that was nothing to do with the EU could make her think any differently, but I do not accuse every leave voter of these kind of views.

Moussemoose That’s what I’m trying to say recent and present governments have done nothing about it, so who to vote for?

Vote for a party that will train our own citizens, and provide decent protections and incentives for employers that do ?

And if there is no such party, then clearly, no enough people do want that.

It's not as if all this happened overnight. It's been going on for decades. So all parties have received the message loud and clear that the public is happy with it. Because if we weren't we would have done something about it, wouldn't we ?

but I do not accuse every leave voter of these kind of views.

Personally I like a distinction between Leaver and Brexiteer.

DGRossetti It is the EU who insists on FOM

@Rosstac and each country is entitled to place strict limits on FOM. We chose not to.

DGRossetti Perhaps the government will get the message now as before we were called bigots by are own PM

bellinisurge So they have been told now that people are not happy with the way it is.

bellinisurge Please don’t say the 3 month rule which is rubbish, how else could the government control FOM

Yes, the lack of restrictions on people is (yet another) Home Office gaff. They've got away with loads of things because Britons don't know their own immigration rules. Most Britons still think all anyone needs to do to get British citizenship is marry a Briton!

DGRossetti Perhaps the government will get the message now as before we were called bigots by are own PM

I doubt it. They've got away with it since I was born (1960s). Why change now ?

There's something odd with UK politics ... people are so wedded to their party that even when they would be better off voting for "the other lot", they'd rather vote for "their" party in the hope their party will do what the other party would.

If we take UK democracy as being formed with universal suffrage, it's illuminating to see how much shit the electorate is happy to put up with. Yes, we'll moan. Yes we'll make documentaries and dramas about it. Yes we'll sign petitions and "make our voice heard". But time after time after time 23 General Elections later - I think it's safe to assume that we're pretty OK with things in the main, although I admit some issues have developed since.

DGRossetti It is the EU who insists on FOM

Which did give us a Dutch GP. Who's now gone. Meanwhile you were quite free to go and work in any EU country you liked to.

Please don’t say the 3 month rule which is rubbish, how else could the government control FOM

Sorry, I can't see what the point is there ?

DGRossetti There is not much choice is there, we could do with a new party emerging or a Parliament that god forbid actually work together for the country, unfortunately I think people in this country has become disenchanted with politics, as you often here it doesn’t matter they are all the same

When Bulgaria and Romania joined the EU, other EU countries used the existing EU rules to phase the number of immigrants from these countries, but the UK govt did not. The sudden influx caused problems which could have been avoided.

This was the fault of the UK govt, not the EU. I estimate that a large number of the grievances which caused people to vote Leave, especially in deprived areas, were the fault of the UK govt.

DGRossetti Did you ask why he was leaving ? Why would I want to go and live and work in another EU country, I would have to take a wage cut, lose free health care, leave my friends and family,
A bit different if your coming here to live and work at the low skilled end, with tax credits, housing benefits, child benefits,
The 3 month rule was directed atbellinisurge

There is not much choice is there, we could do with a new party emerging

You got the Social Democrats in the 80s.

unfortunately I think people in this country has become disenchanted with politics, as you often here it doesn’t matter they are all the same

Well, it's self fulfilling prophecy.

Anyway, the only people being taught a lesson are the electorate. Politicians won't suffer from Brexit in any way. Just the people who voted for them. And who will vote for them again in 2022 (if not sooner).

DGRossetti Did you ask why he was leaving ?

Our GP ? Because the UK suddenly seemed a very nasty place, far too close to stories they had heard from their great grandparents.

Why would I want to go and live and work in another EU country, I would have to take a wage cut, lose free health care, leave my friends and family,

DGRossetti Social Democrats, like I said not much choice

A bit different if your coming here to live and work at the low skilled end, with tax credits, housing benefits, child benefits,

So overall, immigrants are a credit to the economy. But you hear a few fairy stories, and would rather go into deficit as a result ? There really is nothing to say to that. Hows your noseless face ?

Social Democrats, like I said not much choice

Boo hoo hoo, again, someone elses fault.

Yes, I get that as an individual, you felt you had no choice. Now look left. Then right (probably easier). You see those people ? All together, with you, they are why you had no choice.

Sorry if you really want democracy - and sovereignty - then you have to work at it. If you sit around waiting for someone else to magically turn up and do it for you, then you will end up exactly where we are now. In the shitter. And going down.

DGRossetti I wish I could believe, me , one person with a limited budget could make a difference, not hear a few stories actually know more than a few doing it and how they can’t believe how generous the UK is ( no housing benefit in Poland) No free health care in Poland, your company has to pay health insurance for you, not all do especially temp working, I wish I could change places with you and you could see how immigration has affected my area, not for the better

Rosstac so in your area a large proportion of Polish people are working and claiming benefits that they are not entitled to, is that what you are saying ? Did anyone make a phone call ?

Or are they entitled to the benefits and you don't think they should get them ? Which would be all the fault of the UK government and not the EU ?