Still Not the Brexit Arms

[Bearbehind]

Gosh the old thread has been busy today!

Not got time to catch up just yet but putting this one here for later.

And @Rosstac - you don't get to tell me to leave the country because I disagree with you.

bellinisurge I’m not telling you to leave the country, I just presumed that you must have already left, why would you want to stay in the post apocalyptic Brexit ?

Why do you think I believe it's going to be apocalyptic. I believe it's going to be a bit shit. Not the same.

bellinisurge I’m sorry if I got it wrong, but some people think we are going to enter a Mad Max type apocalyptic time.

I disagree with Bellini I think IF we Brexit , it will be a lot shit. But over the years my shitometer has taken a bashing

Nope. I Don't think like that.
I prep for economic austerity, for bad weather, for power outs, for interrupted water supply. All stuff that has actually already happened to me. I think Brexit makes more of this kind of shit more likely. I prep to mitigate against it. Which includes getting an Irish passport. It's what I do. I take action to mitigate against likely problems. I voted Remain to avoid these kinds of problems arising too readily. I'm not naive. I can see the problems that our membership of the EU caused. I think they were worth putting up with and fixable.
But if you want to think I'm a patronising cow because it makes you feel better, go ahead.

some people think we are going to enter a Mad Max type apocalyptic time

IIRC the only major characters who have mentioned Mad Max, the apocalypse or the Black Death have been Brexiteers, with the prefix “won’t be as bad as...”

But I guess it makes a really good narrative to claim that Remainers are being hysterical about Zool opening a portal to Mordor and devouring live babies, so that (being a fairly safe assumption) when Zool per se doesn’t manifest, you can trumpet “Hah! See? Project fear! Histrionics! Scaremongering! Therefore Brexit is Success!”

"Zool opening a portal to Mordor and devouring live babies". 😂

TheElementsSong Yes of course it’s the leavers, not once have I read about how bad it’s going to be, and I quote like a mad max apocalyptic world

Rosstac there is a difference between obvious and known consequences and project fear type scaremongering. The problem is during the referendum campaign people got away with pretending one was the other iyswim.

And still are !

Rosstac, it was DD who mentioned Mad Max, not remainers.

Can I ask why you think it is that we are so anti Brexit?

Yes, there is quite a weird twisting going on with the whole pro-Brexit narrative. Anything bad that happens is due to the EU/Remainers, even if it's been entirely up to DD, LF, BJ, and the rest of the Vote Leave contingent to come up with a solid plan to take us out of the EU without damaging the UK.

(That's quite a low bar, isn't it? "Take us out with out damaging us." Our collective expectations are so low we're not even trying to look for a positive outcome, FGS. No wonder Trump thinks we're a pushover.)

And your whole, we don’t believe anything anti Brexit because it’s all hysterical, panicky Remainers trying to thwart Brexit. I’ll judge it for myself once the dust has settled, is absolutely nuts - like being advised by a mechanic that your brakes are dangerous but deciding to drive on and see what happens.

What reason would all of these businesses, economists, lawyers, trade experts, etc have to lie? Those saying Brexit is madness massively outnumber the few ideologists who claim it’s a great idea.

Talkstotrees Ah yes the economist, the lawyers, trade experts, etc, the people that have not been touched by mass immigration at the low skilled end, not have to battle for MW jobs, houses, long waits at the Doctors, school places, your child’s education be held because the class has 10 children who speak no English, they will all have their private health care, private schools, £500,000 + houses, they won’t be competing against the immigrants Living 6 to 2 bed house, there area they live in won’t be changed beyond believe because of immigration, and please don’t say they don’t hold down wages, because they do in my area, they probably have more to lose than me.

@Rosstac i have some sympathy for your views, however, it has always been in the remit of the UK Gov to either mitigate these factors or remove them altogether.
they choose not too and in Mays white paper, she talks about a Mobility Framework in other words FOM will be replaced with FOM !!!

but now the country will be poorer meaning we ll have less nurses/GP's/teachers and still lower wages, which incidentally never applied to company directors and shareholders! this will never change so long as workers dont have any means to demand better salaries through industrial action... Train drivers have nt seen their wages stagnate!!! now why do you think that is?

this is why i voted Remain, the UK s problems are nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with Austerity and Gov policies.

The vast majority of immigrants are not low skilled. They are high skilled, pay taxes, and work in key industries.

Try again.

@Rosstac - immigration in our Leave voting area is almost exclusively from the Indian Subcontinent. Which Leave voting would make no difference to. My dd goes to a Catholic school. We have exactly 4 Polish kids - I know because I am pals with the mum of two (All now British citizens). I think I would notice, by virtue of my own ethnicity (Irish) if there were more E. Europeans here because they tend to be Catholic.
The leave vote here, a low income area, was motivated by dislike of immigration . The kind of immigration unaffected by Brexit.

PineappleSunrise Oh please, perhaps not in your world most of the ones around me most definitely are, they receive more in benefits than pay in taxes I can assure you, let alone the ones working for cash ( yes I know U.K. citizens do it as well) the car washer, the cleaner, the house keeper, the Labourers, the odd job man etc, I get feed up of people telling me opposite to what I know to be facts, the last one at are firm was blatantly asking about filling in his JSA form when he was working for us as that’s what we all do, yet again facts, but you will dismiss it as usual, I have nothing against immigration in a controlled jobs based need

The vast majority of immigrants are not low skilled. They are high skilled, pay taxes, and work in key industries.

Well, used to (pay taxes etc ...)

One of our GPs (Dutch) has sold up and returned to Holland (no replacement as of yet). Also they haven't replaced my wifes rehab consultant (because no one has applied for the job with the right skills). He was from Albania, and we'd chat in Italian

You see what you want to see. It's called selection bias.

I refer to actual government data.

That doesn't mean that there are NO unskilled immigrants, but that they are very, very far from making up the majority of UK immigrants.

DGRossetti This is what gets me the most why as a nation have we stopped training are own people, lots of local firms who used to take on people and train them don’t bother anymore and bemoaned the fact that there are no trained people anymore so we must need immigrants to fill the gaps,

PineappleSunrise Are you saying I shouldn’t believe what I see regularly with my own eyes and believe some statistics, if this is the case why are so many off you against closing FOM, and have it on a jobs based application, it won’t affect the genuine skilled person that wants to work here

DGRossetti This is what gets me the most why as a nation have we stopped training are own people, lots of local firms who used to take on people and train them don’t bother anymore and bemoaned the fact that there are no trained people anymore so we must need immigrants to fill the gaps,

I Quite Agree.

But we are where we are. Bear in mind we still aren't training anywhere near enough specialists (in medicine) that we need now, let alone 10 years time (or beyond, for some really niche areas).

But, as a nation, that's clearly the will of the people, so we should just accept it and move on. Much like Americans and high school massacres, we've had long enough to Do Something About It - if we wanted to.

DGRossetti How is that the will of the people, we have had labour, Tory/lib, Tory governments in the last 20 years and no government has changed that,