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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:01

Parly @ parlyapp
ERG clause on tariffs has passed ayes 305 noes 302

May wins.
By THREE votes

I hope there is a list of opposition MPs who didn't turn up

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woman11017 · 16/07/2018 22:01

Government majority cut to three as pro-European Tories protest about concession to Brexiters

The government have won by a majority of just three; there were 305 votes in favour of the ERG amendment, and 302 against

GaspodeWonderCat · 16/07/2018 22:01

The government have won by a majority of just three; there were 305 votes in favour of the ERG amendment, and 302 against.

thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 22:02

Carole Cadwalladr has pointed out that the house is going on holiday, not only st a time of UK national crisis but also as the US faces something of s security crisis (the Trump press conference and meeting with Putin).

Twitter
16/07/2018
21:24
@carolecadwalla

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:04

Steve Peers @ Steve peers
The Bill still has to go to the House of Lords, which might send it back with amendments.

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thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 22:04

I'm sorry but those who vote these amendments through should be ashamed.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:07

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
^Tories win ERG amdmt vote by majority of 3. What does todya mean?

That Tory remain rebels struggling to prove they can combine with opposition and defeat government to force softer brexit. ERG proved earlier today they can force government to change course for a harder brexit^

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thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 22:16

I wonder how sterling's doing?

missmoon · 16/07/2018 22:16

I don’t think the Lords can amend it, because it includes financial provisions?

Icantreachthepretzels · 16/07/2018 22:17

But...this is an amendment to the white paper that the EU may just reject anyway isn't it? I mean - they are voting here for things which ultimately, they actually have no say over?

Nevertheless, I hope the missing mps are hauled over the coals (if they are opposition ones) whether the amendment stands a chance against the EU or not, this was a good opportunity to slap the ERG down. Instead they will now be worse - and even if those 40 mps do show up and decide to do the job they are paid for next time, they've made everything a little bit harder for everyone by pissing around tonight.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:22

Guto Bebb.
Aberconwy

One of the most marginal seats. A Leave Seat.

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:24

Ed Overbeek @ edoverbeek
HUGE bombshell in the Mariia Butina charges.

There was an NRA back channel to Russia. But it wasn't between Russia and Trump. It was between Russia and the Republican Party.

Are we surprised?

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:26

Steve Bullock @ guitarmoog
I think it is mainly about ensuring the blame falls on others now. Chequers was not going to be accepted by EU27, but was calibrated to look reasonable to a UK audience. Nasty EU rejecting our reasonable compromise. ERG want no deal: nasty EU putting up border posts. #blamemyth

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keyboardkate · 16/07/2018 22:27

Weird that a small group of Mogglodytes can bring UK to the edge of the cliff and more than likely a Hard Brexit. I cannot get my head around it. What was Theresa May thinking!

The Eu negotiators have gone to the pub now having thrown their hands in the air. Again.

thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 22:28

My post should have said 'voted'.

I don't see how the Lords can get rid of these amendments. My guess is that they will be threatened with 'betraying the will of the people' in the Press and with going against the Commons in Parliament.

This is unacceptable to the EU - we all know that. And all of this has blown any hope of May 'softening' it and agreeing to EU compromises during negotiations out of the water.

Mind you, since she has singularly failed to stand up to the swivel eyed loony minority at every opportunity, I always felt that was wishful thinking.

This is, I think, something of a dissster for anyone in the UK not a millionaire or disaster capitalist.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:28

Robert Hutton @ robdothutton
Is Guto Bebb the first minister ever to resign in support of the prime minister's position?

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:33

Christopher Hope @ Christopherhope
BREAKING MPs to debate a motion tomorrow to go on holiday five days early (Thursday this week NOT Tuesday next week? How do you think they will vote?

Nicholas Soames @ nsoames
#iwillvoteagainst

Nick Boles MP @ nickboles
Me too

Arrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:34

BBC Parliament @ bbcparliament
Votes on amendment 73 are in - this is the amendment that says govt must commit to separate VAT system to EU.

Results: government win 303 to 300 - again by just three votes.

Who fucked off home?!

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54321go · 16/07/2018 22:35

So they can debate buggering off on holiday early but they can't debate a plan to get the UK out of the sh£t.

54321go · 16/07/2018 22:38

This whole process is about as democratic as pulling petals off daisies.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:38

Faisal Islam @ faisalislam
14 Tory rebels on the ERG customs amendment (NC36) including Bebb - enough for Government defeat, were it not for 4 Labour MPs voting with the Government on this - activel courted on floor of Commons by Rees Mogg. Extraordinary stuff.

Fourteen rebels.

I'd love to know who didn't turn up.

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woman11017 · 16/07/2018 22:38

@faisalislam
14 Tory rebels on the ERG customs amendment (NC36) including Bebb - enough for Government defeat, were it not for 4 Labour MPs voting with the Government on this - activel courted on floor of Commons by Rees Mogg. Extraordinary stuff.

TheElementsSong · 16/07/2018 22:38

Well, this taking-back-control-of-sovereignty thing isn’t looking like a wondrous success to me. Right now I’d rather cede sovereignty to a sack of rabid wolverines in the deepest forests of Transylvania.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:41

Surprise surprise.

The workshy tosser from Sheffield Hallam was a no show for the vote.

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woman11017 · 16/07/2018 22:45

Cheerer upper for everyone.