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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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Thread gallery
16
citroenpresse · 16/07/2018 22:47

The Labour MPs who voted with the government but no surprises.

Frank Field
Kate Hoey
Graham Stringer

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:48

tory rebels

heidi allen
richard benyon
guto bebb
ken clarke
jonathan djanogly
dominic grieve
stephen hammond
phillip lee
nicky morgan
robert neill
mark pawsey
antoinette sandbach
anna soubry
sarah wollaston

labour rebels
frank field
kate hoey
kelvin hopkins (current independant)
graham stringer

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:49

Two MPs in it.

And Jared O'Mara couldn't be arsed to turn up.

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Peregrina · 16/07/2018 22:49

I was talking to a Leaver tonight, who said that 'We were OK before we went into the EU". The rest of us politely slapped her down - no firms like Wedgwood have been in foreign hands for goodness knows how many years now. Just one example. Another Leaver voted because of all the red tape of the EU and the money spent on it - well, he's going to be disappointed too.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:53

Garvan Walshe @ garvanwalshe
Technical but serious Brexit thread

There will be no vote on New Clause 37 - the ERG amendment that prohibits NI being in a separate customs territory from Great Britain.

This means the only deal the UK can negotiate (w/o) further legislation) is one that keeps the UK in CU /

2. Remainers aren't rebelling on it because they think it increases the chance of staying in the CU. However, the ERG have another amendment, 73, which is being but to a vote.

It's about VAT but would have the same effect of making a customs union with the EU impossible /

3. If Amendment 73 passes, the UK will not be able to apply the backstop, that it had agreed would apply in order to avoid a hard border /

4. If Amendment 73 fails, the only way of achieving the backstop will be to establish it for the whole UK, and that will only be possible by accepting membership of the Single Market and free movement of people /

5. By not contesting NC37 the government raised the stakes to a choice between the EEA and No Deal.

This is not a choice for which the country has been prepared.

ENDS

We are all but boxed into no deal.

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:58

On the early summer holiday

George freeman mp @ GeorgeFreemanMP
I will vote against it. Parliament has important business to do.

Up to three now.

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Peregrina · 16/07/2018 22:59

5. By not contesting NC37 the government raised the stakes to a choice between the EEA and No Deal.

I wonder if May is aware of this? Bang goes the GFA - more violence in Ireland/NI. How can May, Cameron et al. sleep at night knowing that their actions will have given rise to this?

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 22:59

Steven Swinford @ steven_swinford
The most interesting names are the ones that nobody has been writing about - Guto Bebb, Richard Benyon, Mark Pawsey - if normally loyal Tory MPs are willing to vote against the Government then it spells deep trouble for Theresa May...

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HesterThrale · 16/07/2018 23:03

Greening didn't rebel then.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:04

Tom Newton Dunn @ tnewtondunn
And a further 14 Labour MPs didn't turn up for the vote - either slipped or abstained - also saving the Govt

Vince Cable and Tim Garron were not there either.

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thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 23:07

She MUST be aware of the GFA implications. An advisor would have been there and they would know. As I keep saying, she is simply slightly more crap than you think possible. Every time. At every turn.

Look at how the Trump thing went. It was transformed from an embarrassment into a catastrophe.

Indeed, Brexit, in national terms, has been so shit today that there isn't the space to do serious analysis of the shocking implications of the whole Trump visit/relationship.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:09

Fucks sake.

They abstained!

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thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 23:10

I think Vince Cable is giving a speech somewhere. I seem to have noticed that on Twitter. But I could be wrong (ambles off to check).

No. Greening did not rebel.

That's not good enough.

thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 23:11

You're fantastic, Red. Good sleuthing.

Do you have VoteTracker?

Why did they abstain???

Motheroffourdragons · 16/07/2018 23:16

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Peregrina · 16/07/2018 23:17

Not good enough of Greening - either abstention or rebellion was the only realistic option.

For heaven's sake why don't this lot resign from the Tory party and sit as Independents? They can still vote with the Tories on matters which aren't Brexit related.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:18

Apparently pairing was suspended. Jo Swinson was also not there.

Trying to find out what the deal is. Some suggestion they abstained but looks like they simply weren't there now.

Twitter is going MENTAL at them.

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:21

Two SNP members also not there.

FFS.

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Somerville · 16/07/2018 23:21

I don't see how a deal is achievable now? Though if someone has evidence to the contrary, I'd love to be wrong.
Fucking hell.
They'll get their stupid Brexit, impoverish the country and ultimately sell off the NHS. There's no hope for prosperity for England and Wales. No hope for peace for NI. I hope Scotland, at least, manage to break free.

tava63 · 16/07/2018 23:25

Cripes - just found the new thread (Thank you RTB( and we are already 8 pages in and the country is facing a no deal that could have been stopped by the Lib Dems and they are all F off on holiday early this week!

thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 23:27

Just as an aside ... I replied to a Twitter post about my parents' MP rebelling. Two other Tweeters responded. One was clearly local to the area and a remained. The other was a 'mum' who was pro-leave, posted a lot about Trump, masses about crime in London (much of which I, a Londoner) has never heard of, and - though very certain my parents' MP's seat was in jeopardy (the area voted leave - though I suspect the Leave vote is not passionate enough to unseat him) never posts about that area. 😏

I think some serious money is continuing to pay for trolls and bots around Brexit. And it makes me really wonder how much real passion there is around Leave, and how much is Astro-turfing.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:31

sarah woolaston @sarahwoolaston
Those of us who wanted to give the Govt the opportunity to get through a pragmatic deal have now seen that fatally undermined by ERG, so there is really no point continuing to support it.
Brexit options are now to walk-away with no deal or EEA/EFTA & a customs union. There is no parliamentary majority for hard Brexit

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Ouch - ‘no point continuing to support’ govt deal

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Excl: Full blown Tory civil war as pro-EU MPs vow to avenge Brexiteer victory with new Commons showdown on customs union on Tuesday;

www.thesun.co.uk/news/6795918/theresa-may-tory-civil-war-brexit-jacob-rees-mogg-brexiteer/
Tory civil war has broken out after Jacob Rees-Mogg and Brexiteers get Theresa May to harden her soft Brexit plan

The House of Commons erupted into bitter scenes where warring MPs hurled public insults at each other from across the green benches

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Or in other words, we'll do this all over again tomorrow.

If there is no point continuing to support the government over the deal, does that mean there is no point in supporting May anymore???

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:33

Christopher Hope @christopherhope
Tory MP Simon Clarke on the PM's Chequers deal: "It is dead and we are tearing ourselves apart over something that is dead. We are negotiating with the EU over something that is dead, we are trying to sell to the public something that is dead. It is stupid it is palpably absurd."

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Motheroffourdragons · 16/07/2018 23:35

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:37

Oh and the no VAT amendment means no irish backstop. Which means no transition period. Its March 29 super hard brexit.

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