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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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Thread gallery
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DarlingNikita · 18/07/2018 12:18

I think provision should be made for Sinn Fein to take their seats without needing to swear the oath.

If the UK ever needed them it's now.

Somerville · 18/07/2018 12:19

Sinn Féin are only getting heckled for not taking their seats in parliament by their political rivals for votes in NI/RoI. Not from their members and those who voted for them - it is a policy which is absolutely fundamental to their party and everyone who voted for them knew that.

Paisley Jr out of Westminster for a month- first good news I've heard in ages. He's a nasty piece of work.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2018 12:19

re how to get more time:

Either of these options would require EU heads of govt to agree - I don't know if that would have toi be unanimous - as well as the European Parliament

EP votes are never required to be unanimous, because of the near impossibility of every MEP agreeing on an issue !

  1. An extension - or stopping the A50 clock - is something the Uk would have to apply for;
    the EU would be very reluctant to agree to more than 1 month, because they don't want UK MEPs after the EP elections 23-26 May

  2. More likely is a post-Brexit transition, under the same terms as membership, except without any representation that is actually allowed to vote and decide something.
    Probably be allowed to attend heads of govt meetings and present the UK pov

This would require signing a limited Withdrawal Agreement, only valid for the period of transition.
The RoI would probably agree, because same terms as now means no NI border
It's kicking the can down the road, but the EU at least would use the extra prep time wisely

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 12:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 12:26

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

lonelyplanetmum · 18/07/2018 12:28

Re Sinn Féin

Most politicians lie as part of the job spec.

Except when it would be helpful for them to lie over an oath.

SusanWalker · 18/07/2018 12:28

Ian Blackford just asked TM to extend article 50.

TM essentially saying nothing has changed over and over again.

SusanWalker · 18/07/2018 12:31

Just got this email from the lib dems:

Two weeks ago, I gave birth to a beautiful baby boy. His name is Gabriel and we adore him.

My situation isn't typical - I'm an MP. I'm not only an MP, I'm the Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats.

And our party's goal right now - above all else - is to stop Brexit. We want to give the people the final say on the Brexit deal, including the option to remain in the EU.

Last night there was a crucial vote. When I knew I couldn't be there, I made sure I was 'paired'. This happens all the time in Parliament. As I could not vote, a Conservative MP agreed not to vote as well, balancing things out.

But then, at the last minute, the Conservatives went back on their word. The MP I was 'paired' with turned up and voted.

At first I was lost for words, now I am angry.

It seems that there are no depths to which the Conservatives won't stoop to deliver their destructive, divisive Brexit.

We can't let the Conservatives decide the Brexit deal on their own. We have to give the people the final say, including the option to remain in Europe.

Thank you for being one of the people who has joined our campaign so far. Will you help us continue to pile the pressure on the government by asking someone else to join you?

Share our petition
Thank you.

Together, we are going to stop Brexit.

Best wishes

Jo

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 12:31

Knowing you watch BBC Parliament too often part two

Me: just a second I need to put the TV on
DS (age 3): Can we have Mr Speaker?

Good to see Corbyn ask a Brexit question. Especially re legality of leave campaigns. It got very rowdy reception.

Do you think he's expecting a GE?

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Somerville · 18/07/2018 12:35

Nikita London-centric media portray the issue of the oath as central to Sinn Féin not taking their seats in Westminster. But honestly, it goes so far beyond that. The party was set up well over a hundred years ago with abstentionism as a founding principle; I cannot think of a change the British parliament (even if they wanted to) could make which would persuade them to change their minds on that. It's been a tactic that, over the course of their long history, has worked effectively for them.
They lose NI votes over it, in times of relative peace and prosperity, when people drift back to the more centrist (in most regards) SDLP/UUP. But with the current fear, and the DUP crowing, their support in the north will continue increasing, I predict. (Probably also in RoI though I am not as deeply acquainted with their politics, which I read about in newspapers, rather than NI where I know a lot of party members.)

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 12:37

I think provision should be made for Sinn Fein to take their seats without needing to swear the oath.

Going back to the 70s, there was a (famous) court case that ruled the House of Commons and only the House of Commons decides on it's rules for membership. Taking the oath is one of those rules.

Wow - it's almost as if parliament is sovereign !

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 12:37

Backbench con just asked difficult q re Russia and trump...

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lonelyplanetmum · 18/07/2018 12:41

Anyway if you punctuate the oath it could become

I (name of Member) swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful ; and bear, true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.

i.e. bear others' true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 12:43

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
Haven’t seen Theresa May need to check a phone during PMQs before. Handed to her by PPS. Something up?

That sounds ominous.

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 12:45

Faisal Islam @ faisalislam
David Davis (no E) not so helpful... reveals Dexeu creating a draft legal text of all best individuals precedents from existing EU free trade agreements as “fallback option” for the Brexit negotiation, asks for it to be published.
PM says she doesn’t just want an amalgam of FTAs

David Allen Green @ DavidAllengreen
Dear gods, a quick copy-and-paste job from various precedents.

What possibly can go wrong with that.

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Somerville · 18/07/2018 12:47

Also the prospect of a united Ireland must be tantalising

This.

Everything, EVERYTHING, Sinn Féin does, is a step towards reunification. And they are masters at playing the long game.
They're in a particularly enticing situation right now, where potentially, rather than having to do the long, slow campaign for successful UI referendums in both NI and ROI (as per GFA), the British government might kill off the GFA. At which point, it's all to play for.

I find it interesting that there keep being comments in various Daily Telegraph articles about "if NI stays part of UK". It's not in all of them, by any means, but an increasing amount. When @mathanxiety suggested/predicted (can't remember which) that Brexiteer/government (what's the difference at this stage?) strategy will become to ditch NI I couldn't see that happening at all. But I think she was right and we're seeing the start of it. (Obviously the politicians can't say it directly, while relying on DUP votes. But their poodles in the press are doing it for them - which won't be lost on DUP.)

DrMantisToboggan · 18/07/2018 12:49

If the UK ever needed them it's now.

Grin don’t think that’s going to tempt SF MPs in, tbh.

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 18/07/2018 12:51

Flowers mrsr8

My DH thinks I am panicking (and possibly hysterical). Feels a bit Victorian.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 12:52

Steven Swinford @Steven_Swinford
^So David Davis and Steve Baker have open up two new fronts for the Eurosceptics:
1) PM must publish draft legal text of free trade deal drawn up by Dexeu and rejected by her
2) It's time for the PM to start talking up no deal planning to bolster negotiations with EU

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 12:55

Press Association @PA
#Breaking The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse has been fined £200,000 after sending a bulk email that identified possible victims of child sexual abuse, the Information Commissioner’s Office says

Inquiry which had lost the confidence of those it was supposed to serve has fucked up again. Used To: not Bcc:...

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 12:58

Robert Peston @Peston
So ERG and @JacobReesMogg will try to get @DavidDavisMP’s CETA-plus free-trade plan for Brexit published using the humble-address device recently exploited by Labour. The Brexiter campaign to force @theresa_may back on to what they see as the true path will not be stopped

David Allen Green @davidallengreen
The very MPs and (former) ministers who nodded along with the government "not revealing its hand" when they thought lack-of-transparency suited them.

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 13:04

Hmmm.

Esther Webber @estwebber
Expect that MPs will be asked tomorrow to approve the Standards Cttee's recommendation for Ian Paisley to be suspended - and if they do, then a petition on his recall will be opened

So not approved yet.

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 13:12

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
On Margaret Hodge and her exchange with Jeremy Corbyn last night - Labour spokesman says: “The behaviour you are talking about was clearly unacceptable” and “action will be taken” under Labour rules on respect shown between colleagues

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 13:14

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
%Throw this into the mix. extraordinary @yougov numbers polling the @JustineGreening 3 way exit deal referendum idea...
Remain on 50% after first round, 55:45 after reallocations, winning in first round even with 50-64 year olds.^

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 13:22

Uhoh...

Tommy Robinson appeal today.

Adam Wagner @AdamWagner1
What will we all do if the Tommy Robinson contempt ruling is overturned? We were all so sure he must have been guilty and the sentence was proportionate and the criticisms were alt right provocations

This is what I wrote about Tommy Robison for @guardian. He wins even if he loses. And if he wins we are even more screwed

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/30/tommy-robinson-alt-right-tactics-uk-contempt-laws
The Tommy Robinson case shows ‘alt-right’ tactics are here in the UK

Sounds like Louis Malby QC has been brought in as advocate to the court, to assist neutrally with the legal issues. I think that's what the livestream is saying
Live Feed

Very difficult to assess from the live tweeting but it does sound like there is discomfort over the way the Judge in Leeds dealt with the contempt hearing. Possibly didn't fully or clearly enough put the detail of the charge to Robinson.

This may amount to nothing (it might be said that it was clear enough) but it could also affect both the guilty plea (so conviction) and if not then sentence (well, kind of). Nb. Contempt proceedings are held to a high procedural standard especially if they happen quickly

Not liking the sound of this. They are trying to win the appeal on a technicality....

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