Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 10:42

Tom Newton Dunn @ tnewtondunn
“I will work with the government when it is trying to do the right thing”. @JWoodcockMP goes independent, and offers Theresa May another crucial vote of support.

He's gone rogue.

Nuclear industry hugely important in his constituency.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 10:44

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
Lots of ppl watching No10 carefully to see how they respond to Swinson row

There’s a maternity-specific plan ready to vote on

If No10 / @CommonsLeader put forward a all-purpose motion to give MPs sick/bereavement/other leave it’s a ploy

This alternative is a wrecking amendment

Harriet Harman @ HarrietHarman
Re @joswinson pairing row now @theresa_may must give Commons vote on proxy voting #babyleave motion drafted by Procedure Committee. NOT general, unamendable motion to kick it into long grass! @MariaMillerUK @jessphillips @vickyford @HannahB4LiviMP

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 10:46

Laura Hughes @ laurakhughes
Michael Gove says Defra "are stepping up preparations for the possibility (while no one wants it) that we would leave in March 2019 and then have to trade on WTO terms...” Tells MPs “there has been a step change” as a result of Chequers agreement and white paper. #Brexit

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 10:49

George Trefgarne @ georgetrefgarne
1. Since I came “out” in favour of EEA fall back two strange things have happened. Leavers keep saying “there is no point, Remainers won’t support it because we are outside Customs Union”; but the Remainers keep emailing their support
2. This supports my original hunch that for many Remainers Europe is partly about identity, as is true for Leavers. Any durable settlement will have to recognise that
3. Anyway, Chequers is a wicked plan and I am happy to have nothing to do with it.
4. Feeling your conscience is clear is a great personal and political asset. When Chequers fails all its supporters are going to have long dark nights of the soul

The Columnist @ Sime0nStylites
Brexit interested folks should follow Mr. Trefgarne who represents a recent but developing strand of Conservative thought.

OP posts:
Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 11:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

orangetreesinspring · 18/07/2018 11:19

*Interesting way round this is framed: no deal under may or be bold and get a new leader to stay in the EEA...

I am surprised emphasis isn't the other way round*

Maybe the light is dawning that May is a closet leaver/ERGer and there will be no last minute reprieve under her.

She wants hard Brexit and all the authoritarian opportunities that will provide.

I have hoped up to the last few days that she was looking for the right time to pull the brake but think now that was wishful thinking and the obvious is staring us in the face. We will get a jump off the cliff hard Brexit under May.

I hope I'm wrong.

Long time lurker here, thank you so much for this thread it is a light shining in the darkness atm.

Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 11:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

20nil · 18/07/2018 11:30

The EU does not want a crash out and will agree to an extension if asked. Even Tories will understand when we really get to the crunch that crashing out will cost them their jobs and the economy. We have not got to the point of no return but the intent is there. That’s why you can have Greening, Soames etc... voting with the government while explaining that they’re prepared not to. But not yet. The EU hasn’t even responded in detail to the white paper.

The miners’ strike affected the miners. Crashing out of the EU will affect us all.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 11:40

Arj Singh @ singharj
Grayling to face questions on rail chaos today. Also 3 UQs and a ministerial statement severely restricts time for Boris Johnson to make his resignation statement, it appears.

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
Government upsets Boris resignation speech timing

... is that cackling I can hear from the Tory whips office...

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 11:40

Of course parallels between the miners strike and Brexit are everywhere.

The miners strike had fuck all do do with coal and everything to do with ensuring that trade unions never had the chance to run the country again. It was a political mission. Sadly, but putting Scargill (wither he ?) in to bat for the NUM the miners acknowledged it was a political - not industrial - dispute.

The EU does not want a crash out and will agree to an extension if asked.

I don't think that's completely the case. If the price of an extension is any suggestion of weakening the EUs red lines, then they will happily allow the UK to crash out.

People who only hold UK passports need to start researching their position on 30th March 2019, since with the UK not being in Schengen, crossing borders may prove problematic. Also accessing member states facilities as a 3rd country national may not be possible.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 11:41

Government upsets Boris resignation speech timing

The biter bit. I'm sure Boris appreciates it.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 11:43

Who's put money on which party introduces the first all-male candidate shortlist for MPs ?

I have a quid on Labour.

woman11017 · 18/07/2018 11:43

@MarkCarruthers7
Breaking: House of Commons Committee on Standards recommends the MP for North Antrim, Ian Paisley, 'be suspended from the service of the House' for a period of 30 sitting days from September 4th...

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 11:44

Edward Malnick @ edwardmalnick
DUP MP Ian Paisley Jr suspended for 30 days as Commons sleaze watchdog rules he engaged in "paid advocacy" and his actions could bring the House into disrepute. The inquiry was a result of this @Telegraph investigation last year:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/07/mp-100k-gifts-brexit-trade-deal/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
The MP, the £100k gifts and the Brexit trade deal: Questions over Ian Paisley Jr's register of interests after Sri Lanka trip

This is a big moment for Kathryn Stone, the new Commons standards commissioner, after her predecessor came in for a lot of criticism for a soft touch approach to MPs accused of wrongdoing.

Hello?? Is this suspended from the HoC for 30 days???!

Wtf does this mean?

Why not more noise if it is?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 11:46

order-order.com/2018/07/18/ian-paisley-jr-suspended-commons/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
IAN PAISLEY JR SUSPENDED FROM COMMONS

Oh shit!!!

In view of the seriousness of this matter, we recommend that Mr Paisley be suspended from the service of the House for a period of 30 sitting days starting on 4 September 2018. We also require that Mr Paisley register the benefits he received from the Sri Lankan government which will be italicised in the Register to indicate that they are a late entry.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 11:48

Craig @ ratherBApear
The delightful Ian Paisley Jr found to have not declared gifts and holidays. Suspended from Parliament for 30 days after summer recess. Fraudulent behaviour equals 30 days. It's dismissal in any career.

OP posts:
Icantreachthepretzels · 18/07/2018 11:49

The miners’ strike affected the miners. Crashing out of the EU will affect us all

Exactly - every town centre will look like a reenactment of the battle of Orgreave... except it might be with army not police, and with a lot more women - and maybe children.

People tend not to cause civil unrest - or riot - on other people's behalf. But food shortages will affect everyone - even those who currently consider themselves comfortably off. Not only is there a very good chance that the plummeting of the pound will destroy all your savings over night... but all the money in the world can't buy what isn't there. You can't eat money. Nor can you put it in your car as fuel so you can drive 50 miles to a store where you've heard a rumour there is milk/bread/fruit. Nor can you use it as a form of medication. In total societal breakdown - money can't help.

The poorest will be hardest hit, of course - because they can't stockpile and save in the run up to this catastrofuck - but the only people who will not be hit, and hit hard, will be those rich enough to flee (the people who caused this in the first place) and who have the sense to flee well before March 29th. (after that day - again all the money in the world won't get you out if the planes aren't flying.)

Even posters here lucky enough to have an EU passport are looking at fleeing the country and starting all over again - in some cases with half their families missing.
There is nobody who won't be affected - and affected in the most basic ways. Of course there will be rioting.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 11:50

UkHouseofCommons @ Houseofcommons
Violence in Northern Ireland urgent question from @tony4rochdale will start at approximately 1.30pm

I love how Urgent Questions about violence in NI are put forward by a Rochdale MP.

Just shows the lunacy of NI.

OP posts:
PineappleSunrise · 18/07/2018 11:52

I'm due to do some work with some cops in NI today. Quite interested to see if Brexit is a concern to them at the moment...

20nil · 18/07/2018 11:55

I really don’t think the EU will happily allow us to crash out. They might not have a choice in the end, but they would not be happy as it has serious implications for them too.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 11:55

So Mays lost one vote for 30 days ?

Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 11:59

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 12:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 12:12

And Sinn Fein are coming under fire for not taking their seats in parliament and voting against the government.

Depends what the people who voted them in want.

However, even if we wanted to play "anything can happen and probably will ..." Sinn Fein would need to take the oath first. Which needs to be scheduled etc etc. So no way of intervening immediately.

Cherrypi · 18/07/2018 12:17

Corbyn asking brexit questions at PMQs this week instead of public transport ones.

Swipe left for the next trending thread