Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 09:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 09:59

Interesting take on events as a Whole ... seems Eisenhower was spot on.

www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/07/detente-bad-cold-war-good/

Detente Bad, Cold War Good

The entire “liberal” media and political establishment of the Western world reveals its militarist, authoritarian soul today with the screaming and hysterical attacks on the very prospect of detente with Russia. Peace apparently is a terrible thing; a renewed arms race, with quite literally trillions of dollars pumped into the military industrial complex and hundreds of thousands dying in proxy wars, is apparently the “liberal” stance.

Political memories are short, but just 15 years after Iraq was destroyed and the chain reaction sent most of the Arab world back to the dark ages, it is now “treason” to question the word of the Western intelligence agencies, which deliberately and knowingly produced a fabric of lies on Iraqi WMD to justify that destruction.

It would be more rational for it to be treason for leaders to blindly accept the word of the intelligence services.

This is especially true on “Russia hacking the election” when, after three years of crazed accusations and millions of man hours by lawyers and CIA and FBI investigators, they are yet to produce any substantive evidence of accusations which are plainly nuts in the first place. This ridiculous circus has found a few facebook ads and indicted one Russian for every 100,000 man hours worked, for unspecified or minor actions which had no possible bearing on the election result.

There are in fact genuine acts of election rigging to investigate. In particular, the multiple actions of the DNC and Democratic Party establishment to rig the Primary against Bernie Sanders do have some very real documentary evidence to substantiate them, and that evidence is even public. Yet those real acts of election rigging are ignored and instead the huge investigation is focused on catching those who revealed Hillary’s election rigging. This gets even more absurd – the investigation then quite deliberately does not focus on catching whoever leaked Hillary’s election rigging, but instead seeks to prove that the Russians hacked Hillary’s election-rigging, which I can assure you they did not. Meanwhile, those of us who might help them with the truth if they were actually interested, are not questioned at all.

The Russophobic witch hunt has its first real life victim in 29 year old Maria Butina, whose life is to be destroyed for chatting up members of the NRA in order to increase Russian influence. With over 20 years of diplomatic experience, I can tell you that every country, including the UK and US, has bit part players of its own nationals who self-start in a country to make their way, and if they gain any traction are tapped by their national security service as potential “agents of influence”. I could name quite literally scores of such people, but have no desire to get anyone in trouble. The elevation of Butina into a huge threat and part of a gigantic plot, is to ignore the way the United States and the United

Kingdom and indeed all major governments’ Embassies behave around the globe.

The war-hawks who were devastated by the loss of champion killer Hillary now see the prospect of their very worst fear coming true. Their very worst fear is the outbreak of peace and international treaties of arms control. Hence the media and political establishment today has reached peaks of hysteria never before seen. Pursuing peace is “treason” and the faux left now stand starkly exposed.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 18/07/2018 10:03

I doubt there will be mass rioting or MP resignations post Brexit. When the miners got thrown under the bus in the 80s rest of the country was largely silent. Same could happen if the car industry packs up in the north east. I suspect politicians know this.

Food shortages may cause some murmurs but those with money, resources will largely be able to protect themselves. The poor not so much but austerity threw them under the bus and not a peep outside of the sink estates.

BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 10:07

Yes I agree. People won’t goin the street. They’ll just ‘keep going’.

interesting thread running atm in chat asking what on Earth is happening with Parliament.
Basically people are lost and can’t manage to follow what’s going on. Can’t blame them. I think I wouldn’t either if it wasn’t for the support of this thread .

Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 10:12

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 10:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 10:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 18/07/2018 10:17

If there’s any rioting from the poor we know how the gutter press and politicians will spin it.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 10:19

Shortages of food equals riots.

Or not. Were there riots when miners families had to be fed by donation ?

Like or loath Sarah Millican, she remembers a dark 80s where miners families had to share clothes and shoes. (Reminds me of a McGann family joke: first up, best dressed).

TheElementsSong · 18/07/2018 10:20

We're being told on other threads that Remainers are the elite and that the poor wanted Brexit . Taken together with the oft-repeated mantra that Leavers totally knew what they voted for, I would conclude that the poor wanted food shortages. Ergo, no riots.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 18/07/2018 10:25

Quite, little sympathy from me when leavers get fucked over by something they claimed to have understood all along.

Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 10:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 10:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 10:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FridayThirteenth · 18/07/2018 10:31

Well people just don't give a shit, clearly.

Started an AIBU about the possible effect on infant formula as this was something that I hadn't even considered before. Barely any replies so obviously either most people still think their lives are barely going to change, or they just don't care

It's so depressing, but unless there are actual events (e.g. companies making mass redundancies, food shortages) I actually don't think the majority of the country will take any notice.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 10:31

We're being told on other threads that Remainers are the elite and that the poor wanted Brexit . Taken together with the oft-repeated mantra that Leavers totally knew what they voted for, I would conclude that the poor wanted food shortages. Ergo, no riots.

And in another thread there were Leavers bemoaning how things were, without accepting that things are like this because - collectively - that's how we wanted them. It started specifically grumbling how the UK puts so little into training and education leading to reliance on immigration.

It's been like that since I was born - if not before. The only conclusion is that we are happy with it.

Never a popular view, but for all the handwringing, all the thoughts and prayers, all the outrage, anyone from another planet would conclude that the USA is happy with the odd high school massacre. 52 years or 4 generations is more than enough time to effect change if you really wanted to.

Obviously a lot of people on this thread aren't happy with the way things are. But enough of our fellow citizens are to make it so.

Tanith · 18/07/2018 10:33

Yes, there were riots, although not directly caused by the Miner’s strike.

There was a great deal of civil unrest throughout the 80s. It’s why David Cameron cracked down so very hard on the rioters at the start of Austerity.

Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 10:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 10:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CaptainBrickbeard · 18/07/2018 10:35

Friday I think people just don’t believe the consequences will actually happen. They think it’s Project Fear, they think it won’t be allowed, they think it will all be sorted. I don’t know why they think that.

Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 10:36

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 10:39

Talking of petitions, here's one calling for a rerun of the referendum if Electoral Law was broken.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/223729

Maybe ethical Leavers might agree ?

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 10:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 10:40

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
Conservative Home suggests Tory MPs get rid of Theresa May - significant moment

www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/07/the-conservative-brexit-choice-seek-to-park-the-uk-in-the-eea-under-a-new-tory-leader-or-press-on.html
The Conservative Brexit choice. Seek to park the UK in the EEA under a new Tory leader. Or press on.

Interesting way round this is framed: no deal under may or be bold and get a new leader to stay in the EEA...

I am surprised emphasis isn't the other way round

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 10:41

Britain Elects @ britainelects
John Woodcock MP (Barrow & Furness) has resigned from the Labour Party and will sit as an Independent member.

Was suspended from party pending investigation into conduct.

OP posts: