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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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placemats · 18/07/2018 09:08

What can the NCT do that would reverse dairy product shortages?

lonelyplanetmum · 18/07/2018 09:09

If it's any comfort the Daily Vile is still full of Bile. According to its headline " Britain is working"

just

CaptainBrickbeard · 18/07/2018 09:09

No, I don’t think the NCT has any power to do anything about it, I was replying to the comment that they’d welcome it. I was just saying it would be a disaster, whatever anyone’s stance on breastfeeding or formula feeding. I also love stinky cheese so that part of the article caused more concern for me! The formula point is one that bothers me because women again will shoulder another coat of Brexit - and price rises in formula will wreak more pain in working class women. The poorest hit hardest again. Mothers will be facing terrible choices like watering down formula and babies will become ill. It’s shocking that it’s mentioned so casually in the article along cheese and yoghurt.

Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 09:10

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smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 09:13

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Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 09:14

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Quietrebel · 18/07/2018 09:15

The petition is a great idea!
The quote about infant formula reminded me again how women and children are always mist exposed in unstable countries. Also I read somewhere men were more likely to have voted leave. So what would you think about a Mothers Against Brexit petition in addition to the other one?

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 09:18

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BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 09:19

I agree Mother. I dont think our current MPs have enough balls to actually stand up to whatever their party leader is telling them to do.

20nil a GE or referendum will not lead to extension because the Art50 says clearly that after 2 years, said country will be out of the EU.
If there is one thing the EU is ‘good at’ its sticking to the rules that keep the EU whole

Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 09:20

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Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 09:20

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placemats · 18/07/2018 09:24

Article 50 can be extended. No country has left the EU under this Article. Greenland left but that took 7 years and the one negotiation stalling it was fishing rights. Greenland also has Danish citizenship.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 09:26

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placemats · 18/07/2018 09:27

I agree that the mention of formula feeding was casual. Today the headlines should be screaming out loud about this but I think the press are holding back because of accusations of fear mongering Hmm.

Mothers against Brexit sounds good!

Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 09:27

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Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 09:29

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istartedapetition · 18/07/2018 09:32

Petition has the signatures needed to go for checking...if OK should be less than a week before going live.

Thanks

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 09:33

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BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 09:36

It seems that Art 50 cannot be extended. What can happen is a transition period but to have a transition period, you need
1- thé agreement of the eu Parliament
2- a proposal for culture relationship that makes sense.

fullfact.org/europe/article-50-two-year-limit/

placemats · 18/07/2018 09:37

I think the EU27 will ratify an extension in the blink of an eye in the hope the whole thing will be thrown into the long grass Remember, the EU27 have to also ratify unanimously the exit deal. Will Ireland be happy about the border situation? I personally think not!

BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 09:38

Mrsr8 if you are thinking about leaving no matter what and incl of you are separated/divorced from your DH, then You need to check the law regarding taking children to live abroad.
You will need your DH approval for that, otherwise it would be treated as an abduction.

You need to check that with a sollicitor.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 09:40

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Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 09:41

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placemats · 18/07/2018 09:44

As the saying goes, usually attributed to Harold Wilson: A week is a long time in Politics.

Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 09:53

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