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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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20nil · 18/07/2018 08:09

Like I said upthread, either:

  1. TM bows to EU at last minute and it gets voted through by the majority of soft and anti Brexiters in parliament.

2.GE, national government and/or vote of no confidence.

GaspodeWonderCat · 18/07/2018 08:10

Re Jess Phillips and Anna Soubry - is it a light at the end of the tunnel or not. Clutching at straw (s)

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 08:11

Guido Fawkes @Guidofawkes
Soames calling for a cross-party government of national unity seems like Chuka's most likely route into government.

Not seen Soames say it. Soames is a moderate who hasn't rebelled.

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smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 08:12

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borntobequiet · 18/07/2018 08:21

Is there a petition for a Government of National Unity? Anyone feel like starting one?

Anna Soubry was great on R4 this morning.

FridayThirteenth · 18/07/2018 08:23

So no deal brexit. What do we need to be prepared for? Ive been reading a local forum where the cognitive dissonance of certain posters is astounding. Right after the ref they were extolling the amazing deal we would get.

Now they are saying that project fear is still at work over no deal and 'the sky won't fall in' (argh hate that phrase).

So am I right in thinking no deal means nothing arranged to replace Open Skies, Euratom etc? Or is it likely these could still be sorted prior to crashing out?

What else is there to consider? GFA, imports esp, food, job losses. Have I missed anything?

What's the plan for all those who lose their jobs btw as seems unlikely to be enough jobs to replace them. More people on benefits?

I want to form a strong argument as to why we really need to avoid this but it's really hard to argue with dogmatism

Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 08:25

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woman11017 · 18/07/2018 08:27

Me and Lennie send our love Mrs8 Wink Have a good day, folks. Flowers

TheElementsSong · 18/07/2018 08:28

Mrsr8 Cake Flowers

20nil · 18/07/2018 08:29

The argument against no deal will be increasingly made for us by business, churches, universities, local councils, banks, airlines etc ... A minority will deny it of course as nothing will convince them. But as the possibility gets closer and impact is explained in real terms, people will start to listen.

placemats · 18/07/2018 08:30

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/dairy-products-may-become-luxuries-after-uk-leaves-eu

This is the link.

This is the quote re formula feeding. Don't ignore it!

Ash Amirahmadi, the UK managing director of Arla Foods, said: “Our dependence on imported dairy products means that disruption to the supply chain will have a big impact. Most likely we would see shortages of products and a sharp rise in prices, turning everyday staples like butter, yoghurts, cheese and infant formula, into occasional luxuries. Speciality cheeses, where there are currently limited options for production, may become very scarce.”

BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 08:34

GE or change of PM wont change anything to the situation because we’re tied up by the timing of it all.
We need an acceptable solution by October/November (remember any solution needs to be ratified by the European Parliament so can’t be a last minute decision).
If we have a GE or new PM, or a second referendum for that matter, we need time to organise it which mean no time to find a new solution....

I’m also wondering about the idea that we can cancel Brexit (article 49?). Does it need the approval of the eu Parliament too?

20nil · 18/07/2018 08:34

We are in crazy times. I read the main commentators on twitter and they are widely speculating too, despite their inside knowledge. None of them has done a good job of predicting parliamentary behaviour because it is in mad flux.

20nil · 18/07/2018 08:36

It would change things because either of those contexts would necessarily lead to an application for an extension.

woman11017 · 18/07/2018 08:38

So Brexit Diseases will include:
Infant starvation; osteoporosis, teeth loss, rickets due to dairy shortages and scurvy due to lack of fresh fruit and veg.

borntobequiet · 18/07/2018 08:38

Ok so there was one (a petition) rejected in 2016, because there already was one...but that has closed.

istartedapetition · 18/07/2018 08:44

I started a petition for Govt of Nat Unity. Needs 5 supporters, here's the link:
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/225247/sponsors/new?token=lkL0UogRTFx0SfxoBXT

Please tell me if the link works

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 08:46

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Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 08:48

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Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 08:50

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Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 08:51

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CaptainBrickbeard · 18/07/2018 08:54

I don’t think the NCT would welcome a formula shortage. I breastfed my children but I’m horrified by the idea that formula could be restricted abruptly or made expensive. No one, especially an organisation which supports mothers and babies, is going to cheer the suffering that this would bring.

placemats · 18/07/2018 09:01

I don't think with due respect, that the NCT has the political clout to overturn this. It can lobby strenuously though.

At this point I think even Brenda from Bristol would welcome another election/referendum.

Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 09:04

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Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 09:05

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