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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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20nil · 17/07/2018 23:24

I’m not holding my breath but the votes until now have not been make or break. That might well come and if it does, the rebellion will be much larger. They really will have nothing to lose by that stage, especially if they live in remain constituencies like Greening who has already signalled her intent.

KennDodd · 17/07/2018 23:26

Another march in October.

www.peoples-vote.uk/march

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 23:30

is very hard looking for positives tonight.
Be sure to share if you find any.

I'm feeling positive that it's Tuesday and since there's no Parliamentary business on Friday, that means we are halfway through this week at Westminster.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 23:32

That and the chances are it will be easier t keep the half stone I just put on, come March next year.

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 23:35

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 23:35

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Icantreachthepretzels · 17/07/2018 23:39

I'll be on that march in October - and I will email the tory rebels again to show my support for what they are doing.
It's looking bad.
But now is absolutely the time to keep fighting, keep resisting and never surrender. I will be fighting until 11pm on the 29th March and after that... the mandate has been met and it is time for us to fight for our re-entry.

We have to keep fighting fascism until it goes back into remission - and perhaps next time we will stand better guard against it's return.

keyboardkate · 17/07/2018 23:44

I would look to the lily livered anti Brexit MPs myself. All mouth and no trousers when it comes down to the whip.

OOOH Matron.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 23:48

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 23:49

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ThisIsHistory · 17/07/2018 23:53

Re half stones..last week I tried that 800 cal a day blood sugar fast thing, lost five pounds. Was going to do it again next week but at teatime thought it’d be better to save it for a time when eating 800 cal a day might be an advantage.

lonelyplanetmum · 18/07/2018 06:04

It is very hard looking for positives tonight.Be sure to share if you find any.

I found a positive !

"LBC have quietly confirmed that poor Nigel's current rolling contract 'will not be renewed'."

http://www.farrightwatch.net/2018/07/soon-no-more-farage-on-lbc-radio.html

lonelyplanetmum · 18/07/2018 06:08

It may not be accurate of course as not reported elsewhere yet.

If it's fake news at least it's positive fake news.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 06:21

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lonelyplanetmum · 18/07/2018 06:48

Stellar stellar work, smile.

Just keep resisting I guess.

Although the votes in Parliament yesterday followed by some conversations I had last night at a school event make me feel very much in a minority.

.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 07:06

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BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2018 07:16

Boris's resignation speech is today, after PMQs

CaptainBrickbeard · 18/07/2018 07:18

There is an article in The Guardian this morning about the rise in price of dairy products post-Brexit (don’t know how to link?) Arla have stated that the costs of milk, yoghurt, butter etc would rise sharply in the event of no deal but casually drops in that infant formula would also become ‘an occasional luxury’ in the event of no deal. That can’t be the case, surely? Formula prices - and supply - would need to be protected in some way. Imagine the consequences of a sudden baby formula shortage.

BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 07:18

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44864496

The government has survived an attempt by pro-EU Conservative MPs to change its post-Brexit trade strategy.
The MPs wanted the UK to join a customs union if it does not agree a free-trade deal with the EU.

So it does mean that the only alternative is a No Deal Brexit doesn’t it?
Because there is no way that the EU will approve the trade deal/White Paper as the uk wants it.
And ‘Parliament’ has decided that a soft Brexit Norwegian style isnt acceptable. All that to avoid the government from falling.

I wasn’t optimistic yesterday. Now it’s worse.

Back to getting prepared for the worse then.

20nil · 18/07/2018 07:31

No Deal is not the only option now.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 07:33

Think of the headlines: breastfeeding rates soar in brexit Britain.

It also means children will die. But that bit won't get reported.

But yes the effect on formula milk was something I had thought of. Friend announced she's having a baby the other week.

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 07:37

Last night May was threatening the rebels with a GE.

Last night Grieve said on newsnight, normal party politics might have to be suspended.

This morning:

Kevin Schofield @ polhomeeditor
Blimey. Anna Soubry calls for a government of national unity made up of "sensible, pragmatic" MPs from across the Commons to avoid a hard Brexit. Says that would not include Labour's frontbench. #r4today

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 07:38

Anne Alexander @ annemariealex
Interesting that a back bench Labour MP said exact same thing to me privately yesterday . They’re clearly talking about it amongst themselves

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BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 07:43

20nil what else then?

Unless of course we suddenly have a full awakening of MP that decide that actually opposing a hard Brexit is more important than ‘normal politics’
I will only believe it when I can see it. Atm it’s just words.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 08:02

Jess Phillips @ jessphillips
I don't disagree with @Anna_Soubry on the issue of Brexit this week shows that any one entrenched position will not get through the commons and we need to work together collegiately for the country.

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