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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:59

Parly @ parlyapp
It’s likely we will have a hard border in Ireland says @AngusMacNeilSNP - @LiamFox says he does not accept that, nor will there be a border down at the Irish Sea

Fuck off!

Just admit it now!

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 19:00

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 19:01

DH has revealed he can put a brexit clause in his contract. I will be kicking him up the arse now.

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smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 17/07/2018 19:02

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OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 19:03

It’s likely we will have a hard border in Ireland says @AngusMacNeilSNP - @LiamFox says he does not accept that, nor will there be a border down at the Irish Sea
Maybe they're planning to invade and take over the whole of the Island of Ireland.
Or maybe they're just twats who don't give a shit, don't have a clue or both. Most likely both.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 19:05

@JohnRentoul
Frank Field, Kate Hoey, John Mann and Graham Stringer, Lab, plus Kelvin Hopkins (suspended) saved Theresa May's day

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 19:07

Labour rebels saved may

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 19:08

12 Tory rebels would have been enough normally

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 19:09

Nc17 amendment defeated gov because there were no Labour rebels and 12 Tory rebels.

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 19:09

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 19:10

We might well have seen a GE but for those Labour rebels

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 19:12

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 19:13

Owen Jones @ owenjones84
John Mann, Frank Field, Kate Hoey and Graham Stringer have voted with the Tories to save Theresa May's shambolic government and ensure a destructive Tory Brexit, or possibly a no deal calamity.

They should all be kicked out of the Labour Party.

This is gonna go well...

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 19:13

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thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 19:13

Idiots. There is far, far worse of a fate than losing your seat.

Very grim.

Stockpiling it is. 😕

OlennasWimple · 17/07/2018 19:15

Thinking about the three MPs mentioned upthread who are on maternity leave... Once upon a time, the Whips would have got together and agreed arrangements to partner them up with opposition MPs who would also not be able to attend the vote, so that their absences cancelled each other out.

But now... When Tory backbenchers are tabling amendments to government legislation and the PM has to rely on Labour rebels to shore up support ... How could Whips confidently pair MPs up?

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 17/07/2018 19:18

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OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 19:18

Olennas Jo Swinson has said she was paired yesterday and today. Though it shouldn't be done on something like Brexit as proxy voting hasn't been allowed, Leadsome agreed to pairing for all the 4 pregnant at the time of the offer MPs

thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 19:19

Be fair, Red, there are enough Conservative MPs who aren't headbangers, who know this is disastrous for their families and for their constituents, who have told themselves some story that allowed them to act with enoous moral cowardice. Who, if they had voted thinking of the next 5 years, rather than the next 2 (next GE tabled for 2020), that they could have stopped this.

Shame on them.

Absolute shame on them.

(I stopped thinking of Kate Hoey and Frank Field as Labour MPs long ago. And the one advantage of the momentum-backed rule changes coming up is that they will be deselected come 2020. But it's poor comfort.)

keyboardkate · 17/07/2018 19:20

Are/will there be any sanctions against the Labour "traitors" by Jezza?

I suppose not if it hasn't happened after yesterday.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 19:20

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OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 19:21

Jo Swinson
So if the govt is defeated on customs union (New Clause 18) and other issues, as I hope it will be, I'll have to cheer quietly...

(today I'm paired with Brandon Lewis, last night I was paired with Margot James)

@ZAdomavicius
Replying to @joswinson
I thought you were not allowed to be paired on Brexit votes and votes of significant political importance Jo. Did @andrealeadsom make an exception?

@joswinson
Replying to @ZAdomavicius @andrealeadsom
We had hoped proxy voting would be in place in time. In its absence, Andrea promised the 4 of us who pregnant at the time that we would be paired when we needed it.

Yaralie · 17/07/2018 19:24

Is Jo Swinson actually telling us that the govt reneged on the pairing agreements?

thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 19:24

I don't see democracy in the UK surviving No Deal.

It drives me mental when people start posting inane, reality-bereft twaddle about 'tightening your belt' and making do and mend. There won't be medicine. There won't be police to stop thugs just relievingvyou of anything you have, there may be serious problems with water if there's no fuel. FFS.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/07/2018 19:25

Looks like early recess has been abandoned.