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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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keyboardkate · 17/07/2018 18:08

I have a feeling the vote will pass. But I hope I'm proven wrong of course.

Yaralie · 17/07/2018 18:09

I think that a peoples vote on the deal is becoming more likely, but it would probable only happen if Article 50 could be extended.

The situation which Theresa May arrived at last weekend at Chequers when she thought she had cabinet agreement to her proposals, should have happened before Article 50 was triggered. She seems to have spent two years negotiating with her own party.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:09

I think the vote we are waiting for is the THIRD vote, not this first one. I think.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:10

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
A thought: if the Government lose the NC18 vote, will they then whip to vote down their own bill at third reading, come 7pm? Stranger things have happened, of late.

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keyboardkate · 17/07/2018 18:11

RTB, you could be right, my head is spinning at the moment.

Wimpling · 17/07/2018 18:14

Simply incredible, says Ian Dunt... Surely this is MPs channelling Pontius Pilate? Washing their hands of responsibility?

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 18:16

@IanDunt
The sheer Terry Gilliam-style insanity of this position. Imagine trying to explain it to people in Brussels.

@ayestotheright
We have a prime minister who will accept ERG amendments designed to wreck her negotiating position but won’t accept Tory MPs amendments supporting her negotiating position.

Lico · 17/07/2018 18:17

Light relief:

It has been proven that racists and very right wing view points have a below average IQ ...

2012 article

angazamag.com/societe/racisme-et-minorites/les-racistes-preuve-qi-inferieur-a-la-moyenne-intelligence/2610/

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 18:24

@faisalislam
NC18 Trade Bill rebels facing “awful” threats from whips, says one Tory MP. “They tickle Rees Moggs tummy they tighten the thumb screws on us”...

Plonkysaurus · 17/07/2018 18:24

I don't understand a single thing that is happening.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 18:24

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woman11017 · 17/07/2018 18:24

(@ChukaUmunna)
Extreme verbal bullying by Tory whips of their MPs in full flow now, threatening all kinds of nonsense if Tory MPs don’t capitulate to the ERG like the PM. Noticeable that Tory whips treat the Tory pro-European sensibles very differently to the ERG Brextremists

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:25

PARLY @ParlyApp
Reports that Tory rebels are being threatened with a general election if they defeat the government of a new clause 18

Nothing left to lose....?

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 18:25

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 18:25

This reply has been withdrawn

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SusanWalker · 17/07/2018 18:27

I have a feeling that some of the pro EU Tory rebels half expect to be deselected at the next election anyway, and are carrying on regardless.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:27

Beth Rigby @BethRigby
Govt source tells me the NC18 vote will be “the tightest” yet. Govt won by THREE votes last night. Eeek

Please don't let me be screaming the words 'Jared FUCKING O'Mara' in 15 minutes time...

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SusanWalker · 17/07/2018 18:28

To think Nick Clegg lost his seat to him....

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:29

GOVERNMENT DEFEAT.

on clause 17

(not the big one!!)

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 18:29

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:30

Clause 18 is the biggie.... up now.

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 18:30

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woman11017 · 17/07/2018 18:30

Goallllllllllllll

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:30

clause 17 is about the european medicines agency...

nfi what it was exactly.

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SusanWalker · 17/07/2018 18:31

Clause 17 requires us to try and remain in the European medicines agency so I'm happy with that.